D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[Oofta]

I have a speculation here. I'd suggest that rule either didn't exist (or was well hidden) in OD&D (at least I don't recall it every coming up with anyone I ever played with anywhere in California), and as such people who transitioned from OD&D to AD&D just kept doing what they'd always done (a common problem with edition transitions, where people assume uncommon rules are the same as what they're used to). Given the tendency for a lot of people to learn games from other people rather than from the ground up, it may well be that this error propagated via word of mouth.

I forget when the rule was dropped, but at one point elves could not be raised from the dead because they did not have souls like humans and other races. They also never died of old age, they just went somewhere, taken from Tolkien.

 

[Mannahnin]

I forget when the rule was dropped, but at one point elves could not be raised from the dead because they did not have souls like humans and other races.

Snarf mentioned the soul/spirit distinction earlier in the discussion. This already got covered in the thread.

They also never died of old age, they just went somewhere, taken from Tolkien.

This has certainly never been part of core D&D lore. Unless maybe it got introduced in one of the 2E elf variants? AD&D is quite clear that all the demihumans, elves included, have lifespans and die of old age eventually.

 

[Oofta]

Snarf mentioned the soul/spirit distinction earlier in the discussion. This already got covered in the thread.



This has certainly never been part of core D&D lore. Unless maybe it got introduced in one of the 2E elf variants? AD&D is quite clear that all the demihumans, elves included, have lifespans and die of old age eventually.

I don't have books handy, I remember discussing this exact lore. I'll look it up later.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I have a speculation here. I'd suggest that rule either didn't exist (or was well hidden) in OD&D (at least I don't recall it every coming up with anyone I ever played with anywhere in California), and as such people who transitioned from OD&D to AD&D just kept doing what they'd always done (a common problem with edition transitions, where people assume uncommon rules are the same as what they're used to). Given the tendency for a lot of people to learn games from other people rather than from the ground up, it may well be that this error propagated via word of mouth.

In OD&D, Halflings could not be raised if you strictly followed RAW. Raise Dead in Men & Magic reads: "Raise Dead: The Cleric simply points his finger, utters the incantation, and the dead person is raised. This spell works with men, elves, and dwarves only. [...]"

Given that Halflings were... not great... however, I wonder how many tables were that strict about it.

I don't see any correction or alteration in Greyhawk.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

In OD&D, Halflings could not be raised if you strictly followed RAW. Raise Dead in Men & Magic reads: "Raise Dead: The Cleric simply points his finger, utters the incantation, and the dead person is raised. This spell works with men, elves, and dwarves only. [...]"

Given that Halflings were... not great... however, I wonder how many tables were that strict about it.

I don't see any correction or alteration in Greyhawk.

AFAIK, that's the origin of the rule against elves and half-orcs, since it was first located in the PHB, also under the spell, and with a similarly confusing construction (listing the races that can be raised, and omitting orcs and elves). Resurrection helpfully just tells you that it has the same limitations as raise dead. I don't think it was until Deities and Demigods that the spirit/soul distinction was made.

All that said, I have never seen it explained, in either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory manner, why halflings (?!?) were a disfavored race to begin with, and why Gygax switched that to elves and half-orcs in AD&D.

 

[Clint_L]

looks back at the last few pages...

So, uh, how is the 4e discussion going? You know we have forum tags for that!

@Mannahnin - Regarding the availability of resurrection and raise dead, while I find this an interesting question, I am going to "call" your question and "raise" you an additional concern.

I often reference the rule in AD&D about half-orcs and elves- specifically, that they cannot be brought back from the dead through those methods (absent a Rod of Resurrection, which works for ... um ... reasons). I have often wondered how common that rule was enforced in other campaigns; based on what I've observed others saying, it would seem that this is one of the most unused rules in AD&D, outside of people (such as myself) who always recognized that elves are soulless automatons with dead eyes and a scourge upon the land.

So question 1- did anyone else see this rule enforced?

And question 2! Reincarnation was an available spell (Druid 7, MU 6). How common was the use of this spell on PCs instead of raise dead or resurrection in your AD&D campaigns, and why?

We freely ignored this rule, along with level limitations and ability score limitations based on race or sex.

 

[Mannahnin]

AFAIK, that's the origin of the rule against elves and half-orcs, since it was first located in the PHB, also under the spell, and with a similarly confusing construction (listing the races that can be raised, and omitting orcs and elves). Resurrection helpfully just tells you that it has the same limitations as raise dead. I don't think it was until Deities and Demigods that the spirit/soul distinction was made.

All that said, I have never seen it explained, in either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory manner, why halflings (?!?) were a disfavored race to begin with, and why Gygax switched that to elves and half-orcs in AD&D.

I'm curious as to these questions as well.

And yes, re-reading the PH and DMG and D&D now, you're right that they didn't explain that spirit/soul thing until the latter (unless it was in an issue of Dragon or something first).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Its possible that halflings were a late add-in (I've heard Gygax got pressured into them) so the OD&D entry was simply an artifact; and by the time of AD&D he was thinking more of Andersonian elves than Tolkeinesque elves.

 

[Bacon Bits]

All that said, I have never seen it explained, in either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory manner, why halflings (?!?) were a disfavored race to begin with, and why Gygax switched that to elves and half-orcs in AD&D.

If I were to speculate, it would be that Gygax's assumptions were so strongly built around playing Men that correcting the language of the other existing rules simply wasn't a concern whenever they introduced Halflings to the game. I think it's pretty clear from Gygax's statements that he was very much interested in a fantasy world driven by heroes that were Men. Though we should remember that the rules were not in a digital document in the early 1970s, and neither was anyone in TSR particularly experienced in the publishing industry.

 

[Nikosandros]

looks back at the last few pages...

So, uh, how is the 4e discussion going? You know we have forum tags for that!

@Mannahnin - Regarding the availability of resurrection and raise dead, while I find this an interesting question, I am going to "call" your question and "raise" you an additional concern.

I often reference the rule in AD&D about half-orcs and elves- specifically, that they cannot be brought back from the dead through those methods (absent a Rod of Resurrection, which works for ... um ... reasons). I have often wondered how common that rule was enforced in other campaigns; based on what I've observed others saying, it would seem that this is one of the most unused rules in AD&D, outside of people (such as myself) who always recognized that elves are soulless automatons with dead eyes and a scourge upon the land.

So question 1- did anyone else see this rule enforced?

And question 2! Reincarnation was an available spell (Druid 7, MU 6). How common was the use of this spell on PCs instead of raise dead or resurrection in your AD&D campaigns, and why?

1) Depends on the game, but I've enforced it in some of them, for example my most recent Greyhawk campaign.

2) Very rarely used. I guess coming back as a badger wasn't so enticing.