@FrozenNorth
I agree with your agreement with me! But I also agree with @EzekielRaiden that concerns about "abuse" or "players giving themselves advantages" reinforce the base response. And of course if the game is about unravelling the GM's puzzle, or learning the secrets that the GM is keeping hidden, then that concern makes sense.
Not too far upthread @Oofta referred to "inconsequential" details as not generating the concern. Similarly, @Micah Sweet referred to "minor" things, and @FrogReaver referred to things that are not "directly pivotal".
Anyway, the topic of this thread is player agency. To me, it seems obvious that if all players can do is establish "inconsequential", "minor" or "not directly pivotal" elements of the fiction - so that all the significant elements of framing, consequence etc are established by the GM - then their agency is modest at best.
And in order to pre-empt, or at least attempt to pre-empt, confused or incorrect statements about how (say) Dungeon World works: in the RPGs I know that have higher player agency, the players cannot "alter game reality" in the way some posters in this thread are talking about. Rather, they establish their own goals and aspirations for their PCs (including working with the group collectively to establish the appropriate backstory and setting elements to underpin those goals and aspirations), and then the GM relies on those goals and aspirations as cues for their own narration of framing and consequence.
There may also be techniques that permit the players to declare actions or make decisions pertaining to their PCs' memories. This goes together with the players' establishing goals and aspirations, to overall produce characters that have "thicker" lives, relationships, etc than is typical of much D&D play.
I agree with your agreement with me! But I also agree with @EzekielRaiden that concerns about "abuse" or "players giving themselves advantages" reinforce the base response. And of course if the game is about unravelling the GM's puzzle, or learning the secrets that the GM is keeping hidden, then that concern makes sense.
Not too far upthread @Oofta referred to "inconsequential" details as not generating the concern. Similarly, @Micah Sweet referred to "minor" things, and @FrogReaver referred to things that are not "directly pivotal".
Anyway, the topic of this thread is player agency. To me, it seems obvious that if all players can do is establish "inconsequential", "minor" or "not directly pivotal" elements of the fiction - so that all the significant elements of framing, consequence etc are established by the GM - then their agency is modest at best.
And in order to pre-empt, or at least attempt to pre-empt, confused or incorrect statements about how (say) Dungeon World works: in the RPGs I know that have higher player agency, the players cannot "alter game reality" in the way some posters in this thread are talking about. Rather, they establish their own goals and aspirations for their PCs (including working with the group collectively to establish the appropriate backstory and setting elements to underpin those goals and aspirations), and then the GM relies on those goals and aspirations as cues for their own narration of framing and consequence.
There may also be techniques that permit the players to declare actions or make decisions pertaining to their PCs' memories. This goes together with the players' establishing goals and aspirations, to overall produce characters that have "thicker" lives, relationships, etc than is typical of much D&D play.