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What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
The accidental BDSM stuff is in how he enthusiastically he writes about corporal punishment. You often see this in writers with a fetish they don't know they have (c.f. Terry Goodkind).
Heinlein definitely had some fetishes, and they came out more and more in his late stuff, but there's not much I would characterize as enthusiasm or relish in those parts of the book. Nothing even vaguely on the level of Goodkind. The characters in ST generally regard corporal punishment as effective but it's not described as in any way enjoyable, and the flogging is described as viscerally unpleasant. For my part, Heinlein's failure as regards corporal punishment was to believe what he grew up believing- that it was effective and logical, and that advocates against it were wrongheaded and mistaken.

Re: the skinnies I'd have to re-read the novel, which is not going to happen, but as I recall, their attitude is "either they change sides or we commit regretful genocide". It's far from the only SF novel from the 1940s through 1980s (and even a bit in the 1990s) where "regretful genocide" (often of a species that seems to be coded in a vaguely Asian way, or way that reflects paranoiac fears re: Asia) is advocated as virtuous or at least "a necessary evil".
The bugs are the ones coded as communists in ST. The text relating to genocide in ST is all in relation to the bugs (though the principle universalized a bit) and of the "if it has to come down to us or them, I choose us", but with no assumption that it necessarily has to. Certainly not in relation to the Skinnies. ST doesn't really discuss genocide or dig into those implications anywhere near to the level that, say, Card's Ender books do, but there's much more of an undercurrent of fundamental incompatibility between bugs and humans, which is part of the coding, as it's deeply steeped in Cold War context.
 
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The characters in ST generally regard corporal punishment as effective but it's not described as in any way enjoyable, and the flogging is described as viscerally unpleasant.
Sure, I'm talking more about the way the writer himself seems enthusiastic about it, eager to engage with it, voyeuristic even. Whereas he elides many other events. He's specifically promoting it, too. I'm aware he was later into incest and so on.
The bugs are the ones coded as communists in ST. The text relating to genocide in ST is all in relation to the bugs (though the principle universalized a bit) and of the "if it has to come down to us or them, I choose us", but with no assumption that it necessarily has to. Certainly not in relation to the Skinnies. ST doesn't really discuss genocide or dig into those implications anywhere near to the level that, say, Card's Ender books do, but there's much more of an undercurrent of fundamental incompatibility between bugs and humans, which is part of the coding, as it's deeply steeped in Cold War context.
I agree he doesn't dig into it or think about it seriously. He doesn't think about anything seriously in the whole of ST. It's just a string of unconsidered ideas strung together loosely linked by totalitarian ideology and absolutely in a Cold War context, but what's problematic is, he's an SF writer - he's supposed to be capable of envisioning a different world, but he's basically just making the Koreans into the Skinnies and the Chinese into the Bugs. The attitude is absolutely "them or us", which is, fundamentally a genocidal one in the way it's expressed. He's very clear too that the human military-based totalitarian government basically needs to be continually at war, which absolutely hilariously undermines the notion that humans are the victims here - such a government would clearly constantly be looking for any excuse or casus belli, even manufacturing them. This is obviously what Verhoeven later took from it, I note.

Even the power armour it's famous for isn't particularly thought through in the way power armour and mecha often later were. It's just another idea that took Heinlein's fancy and he incorporated it (albeit a more original and prescient one), but didn't really dwell on it. Thus I've always found criticisms of Verhoeven's movie that involved "He missed out the power armour!" to be very superficial - the power armour isn't given a particularly in-depth or plot-critical treatment in the book.

It's fascinating on one level because it's sort of the anti-thesis to Ike Eisenhower's famous "Military-industrial complex" speech (a man who actually fought, unlike Heinlein). Eisenhower tried to warn us about the dangers of governments becoming essentially the thralls of politicians, people and businesses who benefited from war and militarization (history suggests this warning was of limited success), whereas Heinlein is essentially saying "The military-industrial complex is good, actually, but not nearly extreme enough!".
 
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Zaukrie

New Publisher
So many to choose from.

A personal fav is Haldeman’s Forever War. Just hits so many good beats.

In shorter fiction I’d probably go with The Cold Equations by Tom Godwin. Just because it hits SF themes so really well.

To be honest, I find SF much, much better in short story or novella length. Novel length SF tends to waffle on endlessly about how really smart it is. I bounced off of Hyperion, despite it being one of the greats, really hard because I just stopped caring about all this minutiae that was in it.
Forever War is number two for me, after Dune.
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Coming back to mention another sentimental favorite, which I'm surprised I didn't think of last week- Speaker for the Dead by Card. In retrospect there are some issues with it, but man did I love this book. And the sci-fi elements here are really good and important.
Great book. I get the issues with Card, but some of his books are great. The Worthing Chronicle really stuck with me for a long time
 

Zaukrie

New Publisher
Lots of good discussion about Dune in this thread.

Has anybody else read the Dune Encyclopaedia? It gives the "scientific" background to lots of the elements of the books, from Frank Herbert's notes. So I don't consider Dune to be fantasy (although I used to). If I had to pick one book for this thread then I'd pick Dune.

However, I'd like to give another shout out to Consider Phlebas. I don't think many people consider it to be Iain M Banks best work, but it's my favourite, maybe because it was the first one I read and it make a big impression on me. Although I really like Player of Games as well (I expect we all would, since we hang around on this site).
I like it better than Use of Weapons. Which I understand is not the consensus.
 


Hussar

Legend
On the theme of sf milfic, I gotta give a serious nod to Old Man’s War. Basically a retelling of Starship troopers but done very, very well.

And of course shout outs to Robert Reed, Alisdair Reynolds (sp) and Stephen Baxter.

Any of them just do fantastic stuff. Baxter’s sequel to the Time Machine is just soooo good.
 

Sort of inverting the question, I'm thinking about Peter F. Hamilton, who has written tons of amazing SF novels (with a very peculiarly British worldview a lot of the time, sometimes excessively so), but none of them are close to being the single-greatest, in part because they're all duologies or trilogies or just get a little bit too silly. Pandora's Star, for example, is amazing in a lot of ways, but has some clunky elements, and being a duology, is outside consideration.

Likewise but with an extremely different style, Tamsin Muir's Necromancer books (Gideon the Ninth etc.) which are amazing, but very much space-fantasy in the vein of Warhammer 40K rather than SF, and not stand-alones.

Both tremendous authors though.
 


Divine2021

Adventurer
No one is telling people what to like: Dune isn't my top choice, and @HaroldTheHobbit makes valid criticism about chewy affected prose. I was merely trying to explain it's appeal to someone who seems to have completely missed the point.

And I'm not telling them what not to like: Clarke is a good writer who's work I enjoy. But his characters are largely defined by their profession - this is a scientist, this is an engineer. That's a deliberate choice by the author - he is not writing about people, they aren't important. And one might say that makes them more naturalistic. Many people are defined simply by their role, at least until you get to know them well. You could argue that the quirks many authors give their characters are unrealistic.
Wasn’t talking to you.
 

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