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What is the single best science fiction novel of all time?

Queer Venger

Dungeon Master is my Daddy
Serious question: why tho?

I am pretty well read sci fi fan, as well as a writer with published works, and I DON'T GET IT.
you are a pretty well read sci fan and a writer and you don't get it?? When were you born? I really don't need to explain (if you are really a well read and avid consumer of sci-fi) why this novel is a seminal masterpiece of the genre.
 
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Queer Venger

Dungeon Master is my Daddy
It's one of the best received novels period of the 20th century, by most measures I can find. It is a truly excellent piece of literature, full stop.

It also happens to be a science fiction novel, and among thst class it is the best.
Thank you for explaining what I didnt feel the need to. Most modern sci-fi purports to be sci-fi (Star Wars is NOT sci-fi). Dune set the standard (yes, most modern day "sci-fi" flat out borrows and steals from it) and continues to be the benchmark for what the genre truly is.
 

Most modern sci-fi purports to be sci-fi (Star Wars is NOT sci-fi).
That is absolutely NOT true of SF novels, which this thread is about.

The vast majority of SF novels, certainly the more successful ones, are absolutely sci-fi in the way Star Wars isn't. It's comparatively rare to see a a space-fantasy-type novel do well. The only recent example I can immediately think of is Gideon the Ninth, which happens to also be an incredibly well-written and enjoyable book period, genre not considered.

But even the vast majority of "space opera" novels are very definitely proper sci-fi. Take for example the Final Architecture series by Adrian Tchaikovsky (who used to be a fantasy writer). It contains a ton of hypertech and even some stuff that borders on the psychic (then again, so does Dune), but it's very much proper sci-fi, with a ton of ideas it wants to dig into whilst also having a very exciting space-opera main storyline and fun characters.

The only slightly disconcerting trend I've seen over the last decade is an increasing number of novels which get basic physics stuff wrong, and where it's apparently not caught by either the editor or pre-readers or whatever you call them (brain failure on my part re: that term), and whilst there was a ton of that in early SF, it got pretty rare from about the 1970s through '00s. It's unfortunate when it's kind of at the focus a novel, too, like Velocity Weapon by Megan E. O'Keefe, which, which is fundamentally about what the title says - using velocity/inertia/relativity as a weapon, but late in the book it becomes clear the author doesn't understand how the speed of light works, despite that being like, what the book is about. She describes an plot-pivotal scene that would require the exhaust of a ship to significantly FTL, when it's very explicitly operating at most at 0.2c. That's kind of the tip of the iceberg with that scene too - there are some other bits too where the science just breaks down.

And it's like, I'm fine with SF authors not always knowing the science in detail - nobody can know all of it - sometimes you have to elide or be vague or invent plausible super-science - but don't make it a focus if you don't perfectly understand it! And if you do get it wrong, why didn't your readers pick it up? I feel like maybe some people need nerdier pre-readers.

(Again I will mention Mary Robinette Kowal for being the opposite of that - the one time I thought some physics was off, I looked it up and it was in fact I who was not properly understanding something or perhaps just not wanting to believe it!)
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
these are excellent points Ruin; but if you are going to write for the genre you should know the foundational works and not be dismissive of them.
Tell that to the vast majority of authors out there. Many of them are...kind...to what's gone before as a means of not angering fans of those works, but behind closed doors...or openly in public...some authors will simply lay into whatever's gone before or whatever's popular simply to get attention.

Take one example. Jeff VanderMeer. He openly rails against H.P. Lovecraft and yet Jeff's breakout novel (Annihilation) is a very thinly-veiled retelling of one of Lovecraft's stories (Colour Out of Space).

Further, simply being well-read in a genre doesn't mean the person is capable of intelligent critique or writing well in that genre.

Take one example. Jeff again. Jeff and his wife, Ann, are editors and anthologists who cover a wide range of topics, including sci-fi...and yet the best definition they could come up with for what sci-fi is happens to be...wait for it..."it happens in the future." Which is the single dumbest definition for sci-fi it's possible to give. It's such a stupid definition that anyone who's read more than five short stories or two novels in the genre would be able to spot just how terrible that definition is.
 

these are excellent points Ruin; but if you are going to write for the genre you should know the foundational works and not be dismissive of them.
Sure, but I think it's okay for there to be some dispute over what those works are in sci-fi particularly.

Dune, you call a foundational work, but it doesn't appear until 1965, and by that point, SF was a very well-established genre that had, even by the more narrow standards, been around for 30+ years (it not much, much longer).

Personally I would say Dune wasn't quite foundational, as much as hugely influential on SF, but not even nearly to the point Lord of the Rings is in the fantasy genre. Most of Dune's influence is limited to the first book, and is more about how you think about an SF setting, rather than direct elements influencing people, or the construction of the story influencing people.

I mean, I think there's an entire giant swathe of SF, including the vast majority of harder-SF which isn't meaningfully influenced by Dune. Other stuff like, Niven and Pournelle's work is very superficially influenced (Niven likes a good Dune reference and "we'll go back to aristocracy and monarchs in the future" was I think given a big boost by Dune, having fallen from favour). And sure some is profoundly influenced.

I don't say this to criticise Dune. It's truly majestic, insane, daring, amazing book that I think every SF fan should read (though I do think the travelogue that influenced it should get a little more credit than it does). It's had significant pop-culture influence even before the recent movie, and I think it's had huge influence particularly on the kind of science-fantasy you appeared to be disparaging (or at least attempting to separate off), Star Wars and so on - I think without Dune (and both Jodowrowsky's failed attempt and Lynch's quasi-successful) a lot of movie science-fantasy looks very different and/or probably wouldn't even exist. Stuff that takes little actual from Dune, like say, the terrible but amusing Jupiter Rising with Channing Tatum, I don't think that movie would exist or like that without Dune. Star Wars would be very different I think too - it probably would be more Flash Gordon and less mystical.

But what I'm saying is, despite being solidly weird science-fiction, Dune's biggest direct influence has been on science-fantasy and to a lesser extent, space-opera-y sci-fi (rather than epic SF, like it is). And that's it's a very important SF novel, but not foundational to the entire genre. I mean, I could list dozens of major SF books from the 1980s and 1990s, for example, which I think would be totally the same if Dune had never existed (all of Kim Stanley Robinson's work, for example). I also think that because of it's influence being disproportionately on science fantasy rather than sci-fi, people sometimes see it as science fantasy or "less sci-fi", which is not really fair but understandable.

I'm not suggesting you have to agree with me, but do you understand where I'm coming from on this?
 

Take one example. Jeff VanderMeer. He openly rails against H.P. Lovecraft and yet Jeff's breakout novel (Annihilation) is a very thinly-veiled retelling of one of Lovecraft's stories (Colour Out of Space).
I mean, it's a vastly better-written, more human, more humane and even more intelligent book that Lovecraft could ever have written, on his very best day. So I'm not sure exactly what you're going for here, but it looks like you're swimming out to sea past a bunch of signs about sharks and undertow!

Take one example. Jeff again. Jeff and his wife, Ann, are editors and anthologists who cover a wide range of topics, including sci-fi...and yet the best definition they could come up with for what sci-fi is happens to be...wait for it..."it happens in the future." Which is the single dumbest definition for sci-fi it's possible to give. It's such a stupid definition that anyone who's read more than five short stories or two novels in the genre would be able to spot just how terrible that definition is.
And what you're pointing to here is just a common phenomenon across multiple genres and even into literary fiction!

Load of highly intelligent and skilled authors are not actually that as critics or descriptors of genre. All you're proving is, ironically, critics are probably a necessary evil, and a great writer is not necessarily a great critic, and it's fine that vice-versa is also true.

Sometimes you get both in one, but very often not!

Michael Moorcock vociferously hated all of Tolkien's work, particularly LotR, yet a lot of his work is to some extent a reaction to Tolkien's work. And that's what I would suggest is the case with Annihilation - he saw something done wrong, and wanted to do it, in his opinion (and I agree in this case), right. To do the same sort of general idea more justice.

If I talk to my sister she could remind of various literary fiction authors with similar issues - where they're brilliant writers, but terrible critics, some of them downright incoherent when they're not writing a book (just read some interviews with Booker prize winners, good god). Oh my god I can almost remember a bunch of the truly insane things various genuinely good literary fiction authors have said.

Also if you're suggesting people shouldn't critique Lovecraft the only possible response is "LOLZ", or perhaps, "It's 2023 mate".

EDIT - Hell, you want the ultimate in "Really?! REALLY?!" technology when it comes to authors, look no further than young JK Rowling, decades before she became an obnoxious TERF. She made the following claims:

1) No-one had ever written a novel about a magic school before.

No she didn't qualify that, in fact, what she actually said kind of implied no-one had ever written a book about a boarding school before, per se (but that was less clear). Not only was this not true, but there was actually-popular British series that she'd probably either read growing up, or to her own kids - The Worst Witch. And books about boarding schools are an absolute standard in British fiction.

2) That Harry Potter wasn't fantasy, and also fantasy was just for teenage boys and people who thought like teenage boys.

Again very clear on this. HP was not a fantasy novel, and those were only for teenage boys (I believe she might have said thirteen year old boys specifically). Completely dismissive towards the ENTIRE GENRE. I remember in the interview I read (which was in some fairly mainstream magazine), it was clear even the interviewer was shocked by this response.

Now, I will say, a few years later, she changed her tune, but only after she'd realized that fantasy fans are absolute simps for book serieses.

Argh I can't remember the third stunner, maybe I will later.
 
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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Take one example. Jeff VanderMeer. He openly rails against H.P. Lovecraft and yet Jeff's breakout novel (Annihilation) is a very thinly-veiled retelling of one of Lovecraft's stories (Colour Out of Space).
Unless Color Out of Space has a much different plot than I think, the similarities are a similar inciting incident. But I would say large portions of speculative fiction use the same handful of inciting incidents. Heck, Terry Brooks made an entire career out of putting his spin on other writers' ideas.

Also, Annihilation is the best D&D novel of all time.
 

Heck, Terry Brooks made an entire career out of putting his spin on other writers' ideas.
Some really good authors kind of do. RJ Barker (not be confused with KJ Parker, who just writes horrible misanthropic drivel), for example, his first two trilogies were basically same core concept as Robin Hobb's first two trilogies (Hobb really likes them, fortunately). His third series doesn't seem inspired by Hobb but does seem awfully like a take on Dark Sun (albeit with certain elements inverted - verdant rather than desert but preserving/defiling, man-made climate change, sorcerer-kings, a hostile environment, little/no metal, no familiar creatures, and just the general vibe is similar).
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I really don't need to explain (if you are really a well read and avid consumer of sci-fi) why this novel is a seminal masterpiece of the genre.

Actually, you ought to. Because lots of well-read and avid consumers of sci-fi may recognize its historical importance to the genre, but still find that it isn't actually a great read.

If nothing else, the implicit sexism and racism in its white-savior plot is kind of terrible.
 

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