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D&D General What is player agency to you?

pemerton

Legend
I don't see where that makes any difference at all.
Here are two different procedures of play:

(1) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM tells them the information;

(2) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM asks them to make a dice roll, which if it succeeds will lead the GM to tell them the information​

In Moldvay Basic, (2) but not (1) is the procedure used for dispensing hidden information about secret door location. In the LotFP module Death Frost Doom, (1) is the procedure used for dispensing starting information (in the fiction, the PCs learn the info from an old-timer).

You've told a story about one of your games where there was a brother who was kidnapped by a balrog and the PC went to the bazaar to try and find something to help. I may be getting that a bit wrong, but that doesn't matter.

The player had to declare the required step of taking an action to go to the bazaar to find the information/item he wanted and then make a successful die roll(or whatever mechanic was involved.) to succeed in getting what he wanted. Effectively the only difference between your example there and what @Micah Sweet is talking about is WHEN the information/item is authored. The timing of authorship doesn't have anything to do with agency. It's just a playstyle preference.
I didn't say anything in my post to which you replied about agency.

But the example of Burning Wheel play you've referred to isn't relevant to this discussion with @Micah Sweet at all. It did not involve any process of discovering GM-authored background information.
 

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Cadence

Legend
Supporter
Here are two different procedures of play:

(1) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM tells them the information;​
(2) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM asks them to make a dice roll, which if it succeeds will lead the GM to tell them the information​

In Moldvay Basic, (2) but not (1) is the procedure used for dispensing hidden information about secret door location. In the LotFP module Death Frost Doom, (1) is the procedure used for dispensing starting information (in the fiction, the PCs learn the info from an old-timer).

I think I usually do both, (1) if I think it it would be a success for a competent character like theirs (and maybe they justify to me why it would be - "based on my training as...") and it isn't high stakes and (2) if it isn't an area of competence and/or is risky. It feels like this is similar to me for asking for rolls on physical actions.
 

Here are two different procedures of play:

(1) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM tells them the information;​
(2) Player takes steps to learn hitherto-hidden information by declaring an action for their PC to that end (eg "I search the wall for secret doors") and the GM asks them to make a dice roll, which if it succeeds will lead the GM to tell them the information​
Ok, so what your saying here, exactly, is the two procedures of play are Role Playing and Roll Playing.

Sure roll playing a game has always been popular. Such games are much like most board games: you roll the dice to determine most, if not all things in the game. And this is, in fact, how "role" playing games got their start: the game was a version of a roll playing wargame.

But, even way back when, in the Time Before Time, many gamers added more to the game. They did not just want to sit their and roll dice for a couple hours. So they started to role play. They left the dice AND the rules to just sit on the table and immersed themselves in a simulated fantasy world. This, more then anything else made D&D and RPGs in general still popular today.

The "third" procedure is the one I, and many others use: We do use rules and dice for mostly small quick things: but anything of any real impact or importance gets role played out. Just some random goblin ruins...sure roll them dice; in the Dark Temple of the Dark God: role play. To just roll dice endlessly is for new and young players: once you have played the game for more then six months you switch to more role playing.

Even more is the "fourth" procedure, another one used by myself and many others: the combination. You must both role play and roll play for most things.

A RPG is not just endless dice rolls: That is exactly what a video game is. RPGs are more.
 

Golroc

Explorer
Supporter
Speaking of video games, a lot of players (probably including some in this thread) would likely be shocked at the amount of manipulation and deception many games use. For example, I know of plenty examples were developers or studio/publisher reps lie through their teeth about how their game AI works. Baldur's Gate 3 and their Karmic dice are a very mild example of this kind of manipulation (especially as it's mostly out in the open).

Anyone who thinks they could not enjoy a game or feel agency playing it if it was based on illusion should be very glad they can't see what's inside the video games they play. A lot of people tend to angrily refuse to accept this information and/or choose to believe their favorite games are among the ones free of deceit and illusion. But rest assured it is very much possible to feel agency that goes beyond your actual capacity for impact on the game state. Part of the trick is to keep it hidden. I honestly don't understand the angry dismissal that perceived agency isn't valuable. I can understand and empathize that some prefer games (video or ttrpg) where they can be sure there is no illusion going on. But so much entertainment is based on illusion.

Perceived agency is a relevant type of agency to consider, as that's the only relevant kind of agency for a lot of players. Whether the player action reveals information or impacts game state according to a truthful hidden state tracked by the GM or whether there is some element of illusion or ad-hoc GM state manipulation is irrelevant to these players. The perceived agency is what matters. For example, I've had players who among themselves reached the conclusion about some aspects of a hidden piece of information - and I've changed the hidden state to make their presumptions real, added some hidden information they're still speculating about - those sessions sometimes then branched off into some amazing interactions with the unknown consequences of their assumptions.

If I had stayed "truthful" in all of these cases, the sessions would have been boring - the players would have been disappointed their conclusions were mistaken. Letting players build the illusion in this manner is useful and valid. In a sense those players helped author the shared fiction, but they didn't know, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to know. There have been many tables I've played at, on both sides of the screen, where the consensus was that illusion wasn't just ok - but commendable if it improved the experience. It doesn't work for jaded cynics, hardcore gamists/simulationists nor for many of the narrativist styles. But it can work and it is a valid kind of agency. It isn't purely passive and imagined agency - the way players interact with illusions shape the experience and the narrative.

The more involved players get in this kind of style, the more impact they have. Player agency is exercised through the obligations of the GM to bend reality around player actions. Some might object to the narrative power this places with the GM - and others might object to the unreasonable expectations and burdens this can place on a GM. If "truth" is never an excuse for a session to be somewhat boring and not have enough of whatever the players want (be that combat, roleplay, puzzles, investigations, etc) it puts a lot of pressure on the GM to be able to improvise quickly and to do flexible prep. But some players accept that the GM has this power and some GMs are find with wielding it. The appetite for how much illusion is acceptable in relation to the amount prepared game state also varies - so it's not like every table I've played at is either fully behind illusion or fully against it. In particular the acceptance of the degree to which the GM is allowed to thwart or subvert player expectations / expression is a point of differing taste. As a side-note it is my impression that the taste for illusion had declined over the years, but that's not something I can base on any empirical evidence.

Anyways, this is just one example of a playstyle which has player agency but doesn't adhere to the notion of the game revolving around highly codified authorship of shared fiction (with or without distributed authority) nor does adhere to the notion of a truthful hidden game state prepared by the GM. And there are other variants. There's ritualized styles where the agency is to some degree attached to idiosyncratic rituals of play rather than directly to narrative or game state. There's power fantasy games (incredibly common I've found) where player agency is very self-centered and almost solipsistic.

Finally I want to emphasize once more, I am not saying players who have a narrativist view of player agency are silly malcontents that should stop enjoying their play style or trying to win others over to it. Nor am I saying people who find the notion of perceived agency distasteful should stop feeling that way. I am just saying that player agency is as varied as players themselves. Which is also why I think any GM who has problems with players complaining about agency need to focus on the expectations and wishes of those players - and not to try and get into a debate with the player about the definition of agency.
 


Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
No. You still have to take the right actions. Why wouldn't you?

My line of thinking here is that if we're concerned with only evaluating the fiction as it is the GM really should not be thinking in terms of the exact steps needed to accomplish X. They should instead be evaluating each action taken as it goes and assess what the impact of that individual action should be. It's part of why when I run more sandbox-oriented play, I try not to think about things an NPC would never do but try to just assess what they would do in the moment regardless of what they might think afterwards.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
My line of thinking here is that if we're concerned with only evaluating the fiction as it is the GM really should not be thinking in terms of the exact steps needed to accomplish X. They should instead be evaluating each action taken as it goes and assess what the impact of that individual action should be. It's part of why when I run more sandbox-oriented play, I try not to think about things an NPC would never do but try to just assess what they would do in the moment regardless of what they might think afterwards.
Well sure. I'm not saying there is one set of specific actions; many routes are possible, and I haven't got a list of what's ok and what's not.
 

pemerton

Legend
Anyone who thinks they could not enjoy a game or feel agency playing it if it was based on illusion should be very glad they can't see what's inside the video games they play.
I don't play video games. But to me it makes sense that video game design - which seems pretty advanced as a technical endeavour, and to have a lot of money being spent on it - involves working very hard, on the designer side, to cultivate a particular experience.

I've had players who among themselves reached the conclusion about some aspects of a hidden piece of information - and I've changed the hidden state to make their presumptions real, added some hidden information they're still speculating about - those sessions sometimes then branched off into some amazing interactions with the unknown consequences of their assumptions.

If I had stayed "truthful" in all of these cases, the sessions would have been boring - the players would have been disappointed their conclusions were mistaken. Letting players build the illusion in this manner is useful and valid. In a sense those players helped author the shared fiction, but they didn't know, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to know. There have been many tables I've played at, on both sides of the screen, where the consensus was that illusion wasn't just ok - but commendable if it improved the experience.
Sure. For my part, I prefer RPGing that produces this sort of play experience without the need for illusionism.

Or to put it another way: instead of starting from a RPG design that assumed rock-solid adherence by the GM to the hidden information (ie Gygaxian dungeon crawling) and then illusionistically departing from that to generate the sort of experience you describe, I prefer to go back to the foundations and adopt a different approach altogether to establishing the content of the shared fiction and working out what happens next.
 

Speaking of video games, a lot of players (probably including some in this thread) would likely be shocked at the amount of manipulation and deception many games use. For example, I know of plenty examples were developers or studio/publisher reps lie through their teeth about how their game AI works. Baldur's Gate 3 and their Karmic dice are a very mild example of this kind of manipulation (especially as it's mostly out in the open).

Anyone who thinks they could not enjoy a game or feel agency playing it if it was based on illusion should be very glad they can't see what's inside the video games they play. A lot of people tend to angrily refuse to accept this information and/or choose to believe their favorite games are among the ones free of deceit and illusion. But rest assured it is very much possible to feel agency that goes beyond your actual capacity for impact on the game state. Part of the trick is to keep it hidden. I honestly don't understand the angry dismissal that perceived agency isn't valuable. I can understand and empathize that some prefer games (video or ttrpg) where they can be sure there is no illusion going on. But so much entertainment is based on illusion.

Perceived agency is a relevant type of agency to consider, as that's the only relevant kind of agency for a lot of players. Whether the player action reveals information or impacts game state according to a truthful hidden state tracked by the GM or whether there is some element of illusion or ad-hoc GM state manipulation is irrelevant to these players. The perceived agency is what matters. For example, I've had players who among themselves reached the conclusion about some aspects of a hidden piece of information - and I've changed the hidden state to make their presumptions real, added some hidden information they're still speculating about - those sessions sometimes then branched off into some amazing interactions with the unknown consequences of their assumptions.

If I had stayed "truthful" in all of these cases, the sessions would have been boring - the players would have been disappointed their conclusions were mistaken. Letting players build the illusion in this manner is useful and valid. In a sense those players helped author the shared fiction, but they didn't know, and I'm pretty sure they didn't want to know. There have been many tables I've played at, on both sides of the screen, where the consensus was that illusion wasn't just ok - but commendable if it improved the experience. It doesn't work for jaded cynics, hardcore gamists/simulationists nor for many of the narrativist styles. But it can work and it is a valid kind of agency. It isn't purely passive and imagined agency - the way players interact with illusions shape the experience and the narrative.

The more involved players get in this kind of style, the more impact they have. Player agency is exercised through the obligations of the GM to bend reality around player actions. Some might object to the narrative power this places with the GM - and others might object to the unreasonable expectations and burdens this can place on a GM. If "truth" is never an excuse for a session to be somewhat boring and not have enough of whatever the players want (be that combat, roleplay, puzzles, investigations, etc) it puts a lot of pressure on the GM to be able to improvise quickly and to do flexible prep. But some players accept that the GM has this power and some GMs are find with wielding it. The appetite for how much illusion is acceptable in relation to the amount prepared game state also varies - so it's not like every table I've played at is either fully behind illusion or fully against it. In particular the acceptance of the degree to which the GM is allowed to thwart or subvert player expectations / expression is a point of differing taste. As a side-note it is my impression that the taste for illusion had declined over the years, but that's not something I can base on any empirical evidence.

Anyways, this is just one example of a playstyle which has player agency but doesn't adhere to the notion of the game revolving around highly codified authorship of shared fiction (with or without distributed authority) nor does adhere to the notion of a truthful hidden game state prepared by the GM. And there are other variants. There's ritualized styles where the agency is to some degree attached to idiosyncratic rituals of play rather than directly to narrative or game state. There's power fantasy games (incredibly common I've found) where player agency is very self-centered and almost solipsistic.

Finally I want to emphasize once more, I am not saying players who have a narrativist view of player agency are silly malcontents that should stop enjoying their play style or trying to win others over to it. Nor am I saying people who find the notion of perceived agency distasteful should stop feeling that way. I am just saying that player agency is as varied as players themselves. Which is also why I think any GM who has problems with players complaining about agency need to focus on the expectations and wishes of those players - and not to try and get into a debate with the player about the definition of agency.

As maybe a taking off in a bit different direction here, what strikes me is that this sort of illusionism, the refashioning of your intended situation so as to engage fully with the player's agenda, IS in some ways a lot like narrativist play, we just skip the initial fashioning of situation in a lot of cases (not all, or not completely perhaps).

So, the main thing I find useful in systems designed for narrativist play is that they (again generally, there are likely exceptions) carefully spell out the 'rules' that the GM should follow in this process. That is, the Dungeon World list of agenda, principles, and techniques which couple with the play loop to form an overall process of play which reliably produces the desired sorts of outcomes. There's also usually some supporting mechanics, but its that stuff like "be a fan of the characters" and "fill their lives with adventure" and such that really sets those games apart in my opinion.
 

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