D&D 5E Tedium for balance. Should we balance powerful effects with bookkeeping?

[mamba]

the thing about alternatives is that if 15 or even 20% of the player base use them then they've served thier function.

yes, not sure why you brought it up

I have no data but I'd bet more than 15 to 20 percent of table's track stuff.

spell components? I doubt it, even so, I did not say they should remove them, I said they can offer better alternatives on top of it

 

[Micah Sweet]

good question, I’d like them changed so they get ignored less. At a minimum offer some (hopefully more popular) alternatives

I'd rather just play a version of the game that includes the rules I like, and I could care less if it's popular with the masses. I don't play with the masses.

 

[mamba]

the game was literally designed with the DM as the Fulcrum to maintain the level of balance they want in their game. Rules can't fix that unless you make a new game.

I assume they intended for the rules to do quite a bit of the lifting instead of leaving it all to the DM

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The parts of the questionnaire that I'm struggling with are the words "tedious" and "bookkeeping."

Almost everything in D&D involves changing numbers and keeping track of those changes: from AC to XP, hit points to spell slots, gold coins to silver arrows, ki points and spell points and grit. It's all Uses of X per Y, where X is a feature and Y is the reset. And that is always going to be a form of bookkeeping, and it is always going to be tedious...but the amount of bookkeeping (and the tedium that comes with it) will vary from table to table.

Importantly, this has nothing to do with balance. Powerful abilities are always going to be powerful whether your character can cast them once in their lifetime, or every six seconds. The DM builds the world and the encounters, and thus can throttle the power level of an ability easily. A character that can cast Fireball every round is easily to balance, just by filling the dungeon with creatures that have Evasion, or immunity to fire, or the ability to Counterspell every round, etc. The player will obviously be frustrated, but is it any more frustrating than "here's this super-cool ability! Too bad you can only use it X times per Whatever."

So I voted No. I understand that the rules need to be written in a balanced and easy-to-track manner, yes, but they also need a DM to interpret them for their specific table and players.

An example of tedious bookkeeping used to (allegedly) "balance" a powerful ability is the stupidly broken PF1e feat "Sacred Geometry."

The TL;DR is, you have to roll a set of d6 equal to your K(Eng) ranks. You get two (effectively) free MM feats, which you can apply to this (and any other MM feats you know) spontaneously without raising the spell slot level, IF you can perform a random numerology puzzle to do so. There are various "prime constants" you must match with the aforementioned Nd6, which can be operated upon using any combination of +, -, ×, /, and parentheses. If you cannot produce the required prime constant, the spell fails and is lost.

E.g., say you have 8 ranks in K(Eng). You want to cast quickened magic missile. You do still need to be able to cast spells at that effective spell level (e.g. a 5th level slot in this case), but the spell you actually cast will be 1st level. You roll your 8d6 and get {5, 5, 6, 4, 6, 5, 5, 3}. The "prime constants" for an effective 5th level spell are 43, 47, 53. This can be done with 6×(6+3)-5/5+(5-5)×(4) = 6×(9)-1+0 = 54-1 = 53. There are several other patterns which could be used to hit one of the other target numbers. Folks have crunched the numbers (as have I), and even with only 8 dice you have like a 99% chance of being able to pull off any prime number you want. (It helps to know that all primes greater than 3 can be written as one more or one less than a multiple of 6.)

The problem is, actually doing this at the table? Incredibly tedious! I was only able to do the above as quickly as I did because I've practiced this for actual use in a real (but very gonzo) epic PF1e game. (Believe it or not, using this feat was genuinely 100% in keeping with the theme of the character! I chose to only use it for buff spells for myself and my fellow players, to limit the tedium to daily stuff that I could do between sessions.)

That is exactly the kind of thing being described when one speaks of tedium being used to balance out power. Perhaps a more pointed case than most, but you wanted an example, and this is about as clear as it can get.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'd rather just play a version of the game that includes the rules I like, and I could care less if it's popular with the masses. I don't play with the masses.

Ah, if only we all could have a game designed directly for our preferences, rather than...well. Pretty much exactly the opposite for me, in most cases.

 

[mamba]

I'd rather just play a version of the game that includes the rules I like, and I could care less if it's popular with the masses. I don't play with the masses.

that is fine, I did not argue for ‘your’ rules to be removed, I wanted alternatives to be added

 

[Micah Sweet]

yes, not sure why you brought it up


spell components? I doubt it, even so, I did not say they should remove them, I said they can offer better alternatives on top of it

You mean alternative you like better, I assume.

 

[mamba]

You mean alternative you like better, I assume.

I do not need more than one alternative I like, and if none do meet that criteria, they will get ignored just like components are, so no, I did mean alternatives, full stop.

I would not mind liking one or more of them, but the goal was to have them, otherwise I would have argued for a specific one

 

[nevin]

An example of tedious bookkeeping used to (allegedly) "balance" a powerful ability is the stupidly broken PF1e feat "Sacred Geometry."

The TL;DR is, you have to roll a set of d6 equal to your K(Eng) ranks. You get two (effectively) free MM feats, which you can apply to this (and any other MM feats you know) spontaneously without raising the spell slot level, IF you can perform a random numerology puzzle to do so. There are various "prime constants" you must match with the aforementioned Nd6, which can be operated upon using any combination of +, -, ×, /, and parentheses. If you cannot produce the required prime constant, the spell fails and is lost.

E.g., say you have 8 ranks in K(Eng). You want to cast quickened magic missile. You do still need to be able to cast spells at that effective spell level (e.g. a 5th level slot in this case), but the spell you actually cast will be 1st level. You roll your 8d6 and get {5, 5, 6, 4, 6, 5, 5, 3}. The "prime constants" for an effective 5th level spell are 43, 47, 53. This can be done with 6×(6+3)-5/5+(5-5)×(4) = 6×(9)-1+0 = 54-1 = 53. There are several other patterns which could be used to hit one of the other target numbers. Folks have crunched the numbers (as have I), and even with only 8 dice you have like a 99% chance of being able to pull off any prime number you want. (It helps to know that all primes greater than 3 can be written as one more or one less than a multiple of 6.)

The problem is, actually doing this at the table? Incredibly tedious! I was only able to do the above as quickly as I did because I've practiced this for actual use in a real (but very gonzo) epic PF1e game.

That is exactly the kind of thing being described when one speaks of tedium being used to balance out power. Perhaps a more pointed case than most, but you wanted an example, and this is about as clear as it can get.

No I don't see any balancing from the tedium. It adds a bit of randomness that makes the spell less reliable and makes the player do the math for no reason other than doing the math. Tedium to balance things out is tracking your components, makeing sure you actually have that piece of chalk you want to mark the dungeon with. does that spell sound tedious yes. does the Tedium actually do anything with balance no. that's just complicated for the sake of being complicated because someone thought complicated was cool.

 

[CleverNickName]

An example of tedious bookkeeping used to (allegedly) "balance" a powerful ability is the stupidly broken PF1e feat "Sacred Geometry."

The TL;DR is, you have to roll a set of d6 equal to your K(Eng) ranks. You get two (effectively) free MM feats, which you can apply to this (and any other MM feats you know) spontaneously without raising the spell slot level, IF you can perform a random numerology puzzle to do so. There are various "prime constants" you must match with the aforementioned Nd6, which can be operated upon using any combination of +, -, ×, /, and parentheses. If you cannot produce the required prime constant, the spell fails and is lost.

E.g., say you have 8 ranks in K(Eng). You want to cast quickened magic missile. You do still need to be able to cast spells at that effective spell level (e.g. a 5th level slot in this case), but the spell you actually cast will be 1st level. You roll your 8d6 and get {5, 5, 6, 4, 6, 5, 5, 3}. The "prime constants" for an effective 5th level spell are 43, 47, 53. This can be done with 6×(6+3)-5/5+(5-5)×(4) = 6×(9)-1+0 = 54-1 = 53. There are several other patterns which could be used to hit one of the other target numbers. Folks have crunched the numbers (as have I), and even with only 8 dice you have like a 99% chance of being able to pull off any prime number you want. (It helps to know that all primes greater than 3 can be written as one more or one less than a multiple of 6.)

The problem is, actually doing this at the table? Incredibly tedious! I was only able to do the above as quickly as I did because I've practiced this for actual use in a real (but very gonzo) epic PF1e game.

That is exactly the kind of thing being described when one speaks of tedium being used to balance out power. Perhaps a more pointed case than most, but you wanted an example, and this is about as clear as it can get.

Good lord. Yeah, that's Pathfinder alright.

Right now I'm kicking around the idea of using the Recharge mechanic to balance out the class features and spells. It's still in the development stages, with lots of tweaking and adjustments, but it goes a little bit like this:

• A "Recharge die" is an unmodified d8.
• You roll it at the end of your turn.

For spells and spellcasting:

• Spellcasters have one spell slot per spell level. A 5th level cleric would have one 1st level spell slot, one 2nd level spell slot, and one 3rd level spell slot, for example.
• The Recharge number for a spell slot is equal to its spell level.
• When you cast a 3rd level spell (for example), you can't cast any more 3rd level spells until you roll a 3 or higher on your Recharge die. If you want to cast Fireball again, for example, you will have to spend your 4th level spell slot, or wait for your 3rd level slot to Recharge.
• Each Reset roll applies to only one spell level. If you have multiple spell levels that are depleted, you choose which one Recharges.
• The Arcane Recovery class feature lets you Recharge all of your spell levels once per long rest as an Action.
• All spell slots automatically Recharge after a Long Rest.
• Cantrips are considered "level zero" for the purpose of this rule, and they automatically recharge at the end of your turn--no need to roll.
• 9th level spells effectively become "once per day" spells under this rule (you can't roll a 9 on an unmodified d8). This is a feature and not a bug.

For other abilities and features:

• The Recharge number for most features is equal to their equivalent spell level. A Tiefling's Hellish Rebuke ability, for example, has a Recharge 1 since it's a 1st level spell.
• The Recharge number for non-spell abilities and features is (8 - Ability modifier, minimum 2). A dragonborn with a Con score of 17 (+3) would have a Recharge 5, for example...after using their breath weapon, they cannot use it again until they roll a 5 or lower on a d8.
• If that dragonborn is also a sorcerer, and he has been waiting for his 5th level spell slot to recharge for three rounds before he finally rolled a 2, he has to decide if he wants his breath weapon or his spell slot to recharge that round.

Anyway, it's a work in progress. But the more I tinker with it, the more I like it.