D&D 5E Planescape shows up in the wild. Tease from Chris Perkins.

[doctorbadwolf]

Did you sleep through the Pandemic? The Shipocylpse? Greedflations? All the Wildfires Choking everyone earlier this year? The biggest war in Europe since WW2 in the Ukraine? The War between Saudi Arabia and Yemen? The fact that child Proverty exploded upwards in just a year or two by a massive amount?

So yeah, no it was better for most people, although not everyone 10 years ago, with some exceptions.

Just the tip of iceberg really, I suspect hating the time when they were born is driving the all the 80s nostalgia (and to a lesser extend 70s and 90s) abong Gen Zed and Millennials.

Been over this topic with several people around here at least a dozen times. We could trade statistics and dramatic explanations all day, you’re not gonna convince me that blue is red because you won’t look past your own pessimism.


ETA: since you’re interjecting into a comparison of this year vs 2013 (ten years ago), look up the numbers on state violence globally for 2013. 13 and 14 were extremely bad years, and the numbers have dropped quite a lot since then.

The US child poverty rate is still lower, by the way, than it was in 2013. Healthcare coverage is still vastly better, and health outcomes are still better. The story is even more positive in much it the developing world, where many places have gained dramatically in terms of access to health and education resources in the last decade.

So no, I didn’t sleep through the pandemic of “shipocolypse”, or “greedflation (thanks for reminding me how much I despise these sensationalist nicknames for terrible things). I worked full time for a company that gave us next to nothing as thanks for making them record profits. Price gouging and an otherwise manageable family emergency has turned a lifestyle I could comfortably afford into an amount of unsecured debt that I will have to seek debt relief to get out from under. I’m living the crap you think I slept through.

I’m just not blinded by what’s going on in my life, and am willing to look at the bigger picture.

 

[Older Beholder]

Diterlizzi‘s art hasn’t really changed.
The difference is this is art made for the cover of a special edition set, rather than interior art.
That‘s the main difference, the art style is the same.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Then you'd think WotC would put a little more effort into the lore they publish.

That's your opinion as someone that I am pretty sure does not buy or read the current books, and so really has no right to talk about how good or not the lore is.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's really weird claim that a number of people have made over the last 10 years, and I've never seen a shred of actual support for it.

Indeed, on the precise contrary, I've seen a ton of evidence that a lot of players get in D&D "lore-first", rather than because they think the rules are cool or something. People don't become obsessed with Critical Role despite the lore - it's a big part of why they do. Even before that, novels and games and so on, often interest people in D&D settings because of the settings and the lore, not because of the D&D rules.

I don't think everyone does - but I don't think anyone has made any kind of logical or supportable case that "kids today" or "new players" don't like lore. I would continue to suggest the contrary, based on the people I've seen wanting to play D&D. It's about the same proportion as ever.

My players aren't particularly interested in lore, even when, as most of them are, Critical Role fans.

I think there has to be a distinction made between people who enjoy something, and hardcore fans. Typically, hardcore fans are obsessed with lore, the rest are neutral on the topic. This hasn't changed. What has changed are the number of people who play D&D for fun, without being hardcore fans.

The other generational change is how people, even hardcore fans, expect to consume lore. These days, fans expect to get their lore fix off the internet. The idea of sequentially wading through a print book is something grandparents did. FR Wiki matters. An FR print book does not.

And then then there are passing fads, like the pseudo-intellectual edgelordism that the original Planescape boxed set tapped into. No co-incidence that World of Darkness and vampires where cool at the same time. And I guess at some point in the future they will be cool again.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's your opinion as someone that I am pretty sure does not buy or read the current books, and so really has no right to talk about how good or not the lore is.

I stopped at Fizban's. I'm pretty comfortable with my opinion, thank you.

 

[dave2008]

Diterlizzi‘s art hasn’t really changed.
The difference is this is art made for the cover of a special edition set, rather than interior art.
That‘s the main difference, the art style is the same.

His style has definitely evolved over time. You can see it in his non-cover art too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What has changed are the number of people who play D&D for fun, without being hardcore fans.

I don't see any evidence to support this claim, and I see a ton of evidence to the contrary.

As a proportion, I'm pretty sure we're looking at the exact same % who "care about lore" in 2023 as it was in 1993.

pseudo-intellectual edgelordism that the original Planescape boxed set tapped into

Wow. That's such a profound misunderstanding of the relatively whimsical and light-hearted Planescape, that I'm not even sure what to say. That's bizarre. That's like describing Good Omens or Neverwhere that way. It's inexplicable that you would do that. And linking it to WW is pretty funny - they do have a similarity, in that they were considerably more thoughtful (however sneeringly and unpleasantly you want to put it) than previous RPGs, which were generally taking for granted every possible white male imperialism rules colonialism rocks trope possible and barely had a thought it their heads - we're talking about an era, where, before WW, PS, etc. Shadowrun was genuinely one of the most thoughtful and intelligent RPGs out there, bizarre as that might seem in retrospect.

And I guess at some point in the future they will be cool again.

I mean, to be cool again, they'd have to stop, and like it or not, hot vampires have been "a thing" for decades now, really starting the in the 1980s with Anne Rice going big and movies like The Hunger and so on. There's no sign of that particularly changing.

I don't think there will be another "goth moment" like the '90s though, because a lot of stars had to align there, including the sort of post-New Age movement.

 

[dave2008]

I don't see any evidence to support this claim, and I see a ton of evidence to the contrary.

As a proportion, I'm pretty sure we're looking at the exact same % who "care about lore" in 2023 as it was in 1993.

I am not saying your correct or not, but how do you have any idea what proportion of D&D players are hardcore lore fans? What evidence is there for what the split was in 1993 or is in 2023?

EDIT: I just did a little survey of my group.

1993: 17% cared about D&D lore
2023: 9% care about D&D lore*

I have no idea how that tracks with general trends.

*This is a little misleading as I had one group in 1993 and two groups now. So the original group is still at 17%. Of all the groups I am the only member who cares anything about D&D lore and I am not a hardcore D&D lore fan

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I am not saying your correct or not, but how do you have any idea what proportion of D&D players are hardcore lore fans? What evidence is there for what the split was in 1993 or is in 2023?

EDIT: I just did a little survey of my group.

1993: 17% cared about D&D lore
2023: 9% cared about D&D lore*

I have no idea how that tracks with general trends.

*This is a little misleading as I had one group in 1993 and two groups now. Of all the groups I am the only member who cares anything about D&D lore and I am not a hardcore D&D lore fan

I don't know what definition you're using, so I can't answer that question for you.

What I can tell you is that I have seen zero evidence that people are less interested in lore, and ton that they're more interested in lore, in general.

Also you're supporting my argument with your statistics, lol, you get that right?

 

[dave2008]

That's your opinion as someone that I am pretty sure does not buy or read the current books, and so really has no right to talk about how good or not the lore is.

What @Micah Sweet hates is lore that replaces or sits alongside existing/older lore. They, correct me if I am wrong, believe it is lazy to not incorporate old lore into new lore. So change is generally ok, if there is a story/lore reason for it. Not saying I agree, just what I have gathered after many conversations regarding lore with MS.