D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Oofta]

Sure they should.

Some monsters in 5e are immune to non magical attacks which means they cannot, which is the way it is for those monsters but I think that is a mistake for a game that does not assume magic items and generally assumes fighting monsters.

Specters are 5e ghosts that anybody can punch to death from first level on.

5e is a bit inconsistent on its monster design here.

It can easily be done.

In 5e turn immune to resist and non-supernatural martial classes can kill monsters with just a steel weapon. It will take twice as many hp damage to do so, but it can be done the same way they can defeat monsters with resistance to weapons.

To make it even more leveling across classes take away even resistance to weapons so Conan can kill the Spider God.

4e handled no-magic martial classes fighting monsters just fine, inherent bonuses put them on a fairly even playing field with stock magic item 4e treadmill ones.

I do a fairly low level of magic items, but if I were to do no magic items at all? I'd probably have silvered or cold iron weapons act as magical. As long as fighters don't have to have a caddy for all their weapons like we had in 3E.

 

[Oofta]

Because the whole mundane or supernatural debate is really one of whether the DM is forced to give magic items to be supernatural or not.

AKA
Bob is experienced High STR average Dex martial with Melee Specializations
Monster is 100 feet in air.
Axe cannot be thrown 100 feet normally.

Should Bob have a class feature or feat to let him melee or thrown his axe at the Monster OR should the DM give Bob a magic bow or an axe of throwing beforehand?

This is why the conversation is always around throwing and jumping.

The DM is not required to hand out magic items. In addition, a magic item does not make a fighter supernatural.

 

[Minigiant]

The DM is not required to hand out magic items. In addition, a magic item does not make a fighter supernatural.

Never said that.

What I said is the ranged attack or super jump of the STR martial is at every table.

The question is whether it's a class feature or magic item.

Because as much as people say the DM isn't required to hand out magic items, they almost always give them to the mundane character eventually or make the mundane character supernatural.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And none of them are the ones demanding an explanation for every little thing. Because they know how to roll with things and improvise.

"Everyone who has a problem with this is someone who cannot roll with things and improvise" is not really a true or useful way to approach the discussion.

 

[Maxperson]

Because the whole mundane or supernatural debate is really one of whether the DM is forced to give magic items to be supernatural or not.

AKA
Bob is experienced High STR average Dex martial with Melee Specializations
Monster is 100 feet in air.
Axe cannot be thrown 100 feet normally.

Should Bob have a class feature or feat to let him melee or thrown his axe at the Monster OR should the DM give Bob a magic bow or an axe of throwing beforehand?

This is why the conversation is always around throwing and jumping.

Or a regular bow, or just understand that not all fights will involve all PCs to the same degree.

 

[Minigiant]

Or a regular bow, or just understand that not all fights will involve all PCs to the same degree.

That's not how 5e rolls by default. At least for combat.

 

[Fanaelialae]

They not only should be able to do so, they currently can do so. Magic items aren't assumed in 5e and I can't think of a single monster that can't be taken down without magic items.

5e is designed this way intentionally.

They'd have to homebrew a lot of monsters to create such a world.

Let's look at an all martial party. A 20th level battle master fighter, samurai fighter, berserker barbarian, and assassin rogue. No magic items.

How do they take down a Demilich (CR18, which should be an easy encounter)? It's immune to non-magical weapons.

CR4 Coatls could give them trouble. Again, immune to non-magical weapons,

The mummy rot from a CR15 mummy lord would be a death sentence if they can't find an NPC to cast remove curse on them (or simply can't reach them in time - no access to teleport).

If most of them are strength based, even CR 3 manticores could give them a hard time (because strength based ranged weapons have a pitiful range). Since javelins only have a maximum 120' range, the manticores can move away after they attack and perpetually remain out of range, allowing only a readied action at disadvantage to counterattack. Admittedly, this is not nearly the same issue for dexterity oriented martials.*

*Which brings me to a tangent that really grinds my gears. Why is a 1st level wizard with 8 strength able to lob a javelin the same distance as a 20th level fighter with 20+ strength!?

Not to mention running up against something like a wall of force blocking their path or getting imprisoned in a forcecage.

Now consider a 20th level party of all casters. A life cleric, abjuration wizard, moon druid, and lore bard. Again, no magic items. Do you honestly think that any of those encounters I listed would give them much trouble? I seriously doubt it.

There are plenty of encounters that an all martial party will struggle with (or find downright impossible) at both low and high levels, without the right magic items (or support from a spellcaster). Whereas caster will have little to no trouble with most encounters. Even against a beholder with it's anti-magic eye, all they need to do is spread out so it can only target one of them at a time.

 

[Maxperson]

That's not how 5e rolls by default. At least for combat.

How do you figure? Are there combats where spellcasters are at a disadvantage compared to martials? Yep. Are there combats where martials are at a disadvantage compared to casters? Yep. Seems to me that the game design shows 5e to roll that way. Whether you have an issue with it or not is personal.

 

[Oofta]

Let's look at an all martial party. A 20th level battle master fighter, samurai fighter, berserker barbarian, and assassin rogue. No magic items.

How do they take down a Demilich (CR18, which should be an easy encounter)? It's immune to non-magical weapons.

CR4 Coatls could give them trouble. Again, immune to non-magical weapons,

The mummy rot from a CR15 mummy lord would be a death sentence if they can't find an NPC to cast remove curse on them (or simply can't reach them in time - no access to teleport).

If most of them are strength based, even CR 3 manticores could give them a hard time (because strength based ranged weapons have a pitiful range). Since javelins only have a maximum 120' range, the manticores can move away after they attack and perpetually remain out of range, allowing only a readied action at disadvantage to counterattack. Admittedly, this is not nearly the same issue for dexterity oriented martials.*

*Which brings me to a tangent that really grinds my gears. Why is a 1st level wizard with 8 strength able to lob a javelin the same distance as a 20th level fighter with 20+ strength!?

Not to mention running up against something like a wall of force blocking their path or getting imprisoned in a forcecage.

Now consider a 20th level party of all casters. A life cleric, abjuration wizard, moon druid, and lore bard. Again, no magic items. Do you honestly think that any of those encounters I listed would give them much trouble? I seriously doubt it.

There are plenty of encounters that an all martial party will struggle with (or find downright impossible) at both low and high levels, without the right magic items (or support from a spellcaster). Whereas caster will have little to no trouble with most encounters. Even against a beholder with it's anti-magic eye, all they need to do is spread out so it can only target one of them at a time.

If you cherry pick monsters, just grab the gargoyles. CR 2 and immune to non-magical weapons. It doesn't mean much.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If you cherry pick monsters, just grab the gargoyles. CR 2 and immune to non-magical weapons. It doesn't mean much.

I realize that's not your intent, but you're pretty much proving my point. You might not think it means much. I seriously disagree.