D&D (2024) A Revised Necromancer Subclass?

[Yaarel]

They've just added this to the chain-pact Warlock. I'd be sorry if the idea proliferated -- it's the first time that a medium-sized familiar has been allowed, and I like it being something exclusive to the Warlock.

I prefer the Warlock class is the go-to for the Necromancer, so it having the Medium size Undead familiar would still be a Warlock thing.

 

[NaturalZero]

I feel like the Warlock really needs to drop the Eldritch Blast centric design if it's supposed to encompass very specific tropes like the necromancer. I almost like the warlock as THE summoner while letting someone like the sorcerer be the blaster with EB.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Spells - Necromancy has always been a school with fewer spells. That needs to change foremost. We have several editions and lots of 3pp material to draw from and we shouldn't be shy about it.

Minion Heavy - Summoning up the dead body of rats to create a giant rat, in the same way you could have corpses rise and amalgamate into a large-necro beast or turn such corpses into a mob (zombies) or a horde (skeletons) that way it is easier to manage in combat.

Familiars - They should have their own necro-familiars, which they could improve/change should they wish to if that was their interest.

Heal with Necromancy - They should be able to heal their own creations similar to how Artificers do with their constructs.

A Necromancer's perspective may not necessarily be evil, but instead good, recognising the soul above the material flesh as the truly valuable part of a person's existence and as such uses the material (corpses) to safeguard the sanctity of life. Perversions of this would obviously exist, hence your evil Necromancers.
I think defining what type of Necromancer you are playing with the challenges to your character's ideology (by events, by NPCs) would be an interesting thing to tackle within the RPG.

You could have powers that would be custom suited to the type of Necromancer you play, one that is about the preservation of life, one that finds the beauty in the art or one that enjoys the sense of godliness necromancy provides.

It is one of the richer schools from a thematic perspective and thus can create wonderful characters.

 

[tetrasodium]

It's hard not to admit that warlock has too much invested in being wizard+ in too many ways to swing being a summoner/pet class. I think it would be tough to ditch the Eldritch blast centric design of the warlock and not sure it's the best candidate for getting ejected to make room in the power budget.

Eb is a great yes, but necromancer is more than just attacking. Getting rid of full caster progression on pact slots or shifting to an artificer style fractional casting would do a much better job of making room for necromancer powers. Doing that without needing to adjust all warlocks at the base class level would pretty much require embracing 3.x style +1caster level type design to allow on a patron or subclass dependant level as appropriate.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Necromancer is the one of the strongest examples showing how the wizard chassis is clunky and needs to be deconstructed. When 95% of your features and abilities are just the same spells that every other wizard gets, it's time to strip the concept out of the wizard and make it its own thing. Have a minion subclass, a spirit control subclass, a necrotic energy elementalist subclass, a tanky zombie caster subclass, etc.

And there's no reason even the same archetype should go entirely to a single class. The sorcerer makes a Diablo 2 Necromancer (or classic necromancer); frail, pasty-faced, but very magical and has their skeletons do the heavy lifting. By contrast the tougher and better armed and armoured warlock makes a better Diablo 3 necromancer or Death Knight; much more of a personal impact supported rather than entirely carried by slightly weaker skeletons.

And there's nothing saying "having an edge" or anti-hero with dark powers should be warlock exclusive

 

[DEFCON 1]

The Necromancer is the one of the strongest examples showing how the wizard chassis is clunky and needs to be deconstructed. When 95% of your features and abilities are just the same spells that every other wizard gets, it's time to strip the concept out of the wizard and make it its own thing. Have a minion subclass, a spirit control subclass, a necrotic energy elementalist subclass, a tanky zombie caster subclass, etc.

If a person's Necromancer has the same spell load-out as any other caster... that's the player's decision to not stay on theme, not because it's a problem with the class. It's not WotC's job to force players to stay on theme by restricting or shortening spell lists.

If a player just "can't help themselves" and takes Fireball and always uses Fireball (even though they are a Necromancer) because it's the "best 3rd level spell"... then that's the player caring more about optimization than they do playing a character. That's not WotC's fault nor their responsibility to fix.

 

[Aldarc]

If a person's Necromancer has the same spell load-out as any other caster... that's the player's decision to not stay on theme, not because it's a problem with the class. It's not WotC's job to force players to stay on theme by restricting or shortening spell lists.

Isn't that the point of creating class spell lists in the first place?

 

[Horwath]

Isn't that the point of creating class spell lists in the first place?

That is why we need ONE mage class for full casters with lots of subclasses to bring out themes mechanically.

 

[tetrasodium]

If a person's Necromancer has the same spell load-out as any other caster... that's the player's decision to not stay on theme, not because it's a problem with the class. It's not WotC's job to force players to stay on theme by restricting or shortening spell lists.

If a player just "can't help themselves" and takes Fireball and always uses Fireball (even though they are a Necromancer) because it's the "best 3rd level spell"... then that's the player caring more about optimization than they do playing a character. That's not WotC's fault nor their responsibility to fix.

No it's 100% wotc's fault for designing a class where the primary feature is it's spell list alongside classes with equal progression plus notable nonspell features who pretty much have the entirety of the A B & S tier spells from the class counting it's spell list as their primary strength.

Nobody's getting jealous because their sorcerer or warlock can't cast wizard exclusive gems like wall of sand and arcane lock... it's not really till you get down to the bottom tiers of spells that you start seeing wizard exclusive spells. Absent 3.x style spell gating where two classes get the same spell at different levels it really eats into "spell list the class" as a meaningful concept when it doesn't have enough meaningful exclusives


If you go from looking at "any other caster" to wizards specifically though it's still wotc's fault for not building enough room into the wizard class+archetype frame to hang archetype differentiation across spell list the class subtype A & spell list the class subtype B. IMO a big part of that failure is a result of oversimplification and excessive hostility in design ethos to anything that could be considered an element of attrition.

It certainly didn't help that too many elements in the 5e spells & spell system is devoted to singlehandedly broad brush battling the horrors present in out of control white room scenarios of past editions all of those elements add up to overkill in some cases and reduce the ability for different spell caster classes to feel different.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Agree to disagree.