D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[CreamCloud0]

somewhere between 'you will get a magical club and be happy about it' and 'sure you can have a +5 polearm for your PAM build, do you want a belt of giant's strength too?' is a medium of just getting a basic magic weapon that fits your build choices when everythnig starts to resist nonmagic damage.

edit, also, alot of caster build choices will affect a majority if not all their spells, whereas martial options are typically limited to some specific type of weapon type or property, is there any REAL REASON why GWM couldn't be used on any melee weapon rather than just heavy ones? or sentinel? you're just hitting an enemy with the butt of your weapon for additional bludgeoning damage and stopping movement with OAs, if you dont use a polearm you just don't get the range bonus.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is part of the session 0 discussion and other players have a say. This might work well in 1-on-1 games but I think it rarely will work in games with multiple players.

Other PCs are very rarely going to want a play a campaign where they spend their time questing for your favorite magic item and most are also not going to play a game where you get enough downtime to make good magic items. The only one of these that is generally viable on most tables is purchasing it, but even that is sketch depending on the story.

Finally, what if my 1st level Wizard tells you "I am incomplete and not having fun without a Staff of Power, so either drop one, tell me how to quest and get it, let me make it or let me commission it" if you are the DM, what do you do with that request, keeping in mind your statement above?

Here is a another one - What if my Bladesinger wants to do melee only, and she is already one of the best in the party at it, but she wants you to drop bracers of defense for her, because if you do that enemies will need a double 20 with disadvantage to hit her. She could choose and cast a few offensive spells instead, but that is her specialization and build choice. Do you honor it?

For your wizard, I'd invite them to do research to find such a quest, or advise them to become powerful enough to make it or commission it themselves, although that statement from the I hope reasonably mature player of a 1st level PC seems a little silly on its face to me.

For your Bladesinger, same thing. You want to maximize your AC? Do the work, through character build and through interacting with the setting (which is not designed with your specialization in mind).

It is a session 0 decision, but I have no interest in creating a world designed expressly to cater to the desires of a handful of individuals in it. No one in the setting is that important. If you want something for your PC, do the work to get it or hope the dice roll in your favor.

 

[Micah Sweet]

somewhere between 'you will get a magical club and be happy about it' and 'sure you can have a +5 polearm for your PAM build, do you want a belt of giant's strength too?' is a medium of just getting a basic magic weapon that fits your build choices when everythnig starts to resist nonmagic damage.

edit, also, alot of caster build choices will affect a majority if not all their spells, whereas martial options are typically limited to some specific type of weapon type or property, is there any REAL REASON why GWM couldn't be used on any melee weapon rather than just heavy ones? or sentinel? you're just hitting an enemy with the butt of your weapon for additional bludgeoning damage and stopping movement with OAs, if you dont use a polearm you just don't get the range bonus.

I suppose so, if the player argues for it.

 

[ECMO3]

somewhere between 'you will get a magical club and be happy about it' and 'sure you can have a +5 polearm for your PAM build, do you want a belt of giant's strength too?' is a medium of just getting a basic magic weapon that fits your build choices when everythnig starts to resist nonmagic damage.

edit, also, alot of caster build choices will affect a majority if not all their spells, whereas martial options are typically limited to some specific type of weapon type or property, is there any REAL REASON why GWM couldn't be used on any melee weapon rather than just heavy ones? or sentinel? you're just hitting an enemy with the butt of your weapon for additional bludgeoning damage and stopping movement with OAs, if you dont use a polearm you just don't get the range bonus.

The issue is though a GWM/PAM fighter is still good at melee with an awesome dagger or mace. They are not really limited, they are just better with the weapons the specialized in.

A fighter with a high strength at any level can fight with any melee or thrown weapon in the game and be good with it. A fighter with a high dex can fight with any ranged or finesse weapon and be good with it.

On the other had a Wizard who does not have counterspell, can not counterspell.

 

[ECMO3]

Kinda crazy how a point that "some martial/fighter class features cause lock in to certain weapon types" got wilfully misinterpreted to "If I dOnT gIvE mY wIzArD A StAfF oF PoWeR aT lEvEl OnE Am I bad Dm!?". You guys are ridiculous

No it is the same either way. You are the one who said I was a naughty DM if I did not give players items to compliment their specialization.

A Morningstar +2 is pretty darn lethal in the hands of a GWM/PAM fighter with a high strength, and when you get down to it it compliments his selection of the fighter class.

 

[Trasvi]

The issue is though a GWM/PAM fighter is still good at melee with an awesome dagger or mace. They are not really limited, they are just better with the weapons the specialized in.

A fighter with a high strength at any level can fight with any melee or thrown weapon in the game and be good with it. A fighter with a high dex can fight with any ranged or finesse weapon and be good with it.

On the other had a Wizard who does not have counterspell, can not counterspell.

The point about lock in is that the Wizard can always get counterspell tomorrow, or at the latest next level.
The PAM/GWM can never un-get those feats.

 

[Minigiant]

I always figured that the most common magic weapons would be the ones of most commonly found were they are available.

Swords axes and spears would be the most common weapons from older eras.

Dwarven shops have magic axes and hammers and dead dwarf champions have them on them

Elven shops have magic bows and swords and dead elven champions have them on the

Orcish shops have magic axes and spears and dead orc champions have them on them.

Dead knight might have magic swords, flails, spears, and lances.

Dead rogues might have magic daggers or rapiers on them.

So a PAM user would likely be using a magic spear and have to commission a magic glaive or halberd or go to places where living or dead halberdiers are.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The issue is though a GWM/PAM fighter is still good at melee with an awesome dagger or mace. They are not really limited, they are just better with the weapons the specialized in.

A fullcaster probably has about a good 8-15 spells at 5th that all can do different things, even if only half of those are damage oriented that’s still more effective than being able to hit people with differently shaped pieces of metal, without specialising the most difference is going to be a couple of points of damage vs ac with a shield, if you’re using str or dex to inflict it or if you’re doing it close up or at range, but fundamentally they’re still doing the same very basic action of hitting someone repeatedly, let martials have their options to do different things in battle

A fighter with a high strength at any level can fight with any melee or thrown weapon in the game and be good with it. A fighter with a high dex can fight with any ranged or finesse weapon and be good with it.

On the other had a Wizard who does not have counterspell, can not counterspell.

I wasn’t talking about counterspell i was talking about stuff like spell sniper and war caster and elemental adept, and all a casters spells will key off the same modifier(barring multiclassing) so any improvement to their casting bonus affects all their spells equally

 

[CreamCloud0]

I always figured that the most common magic weapons would be the ones of most commonly found were they are available.

Swords axes and spears would be the most common weapons from older eras.

Dwarven shops have magic axes and hammers and dead dwarf champions have them on them

Elven shops have magic bows and swords and dead elven champions have them on the

Orcish shops have magic axes and spears and dead orc champions have them on them.

Dead knight might have magic swords, flails, spears, and lances.

Dead rogues might have magic daggers or rapiers on them.

So a PAM user would likely be using a magic spear and have to commission a magic glaive or halberd or go to places where living or dead halberdiers are.

Sure i can agree with that, but what about when the main quest your group wants to follow goes nowhere near any specific place you’d want to go for your specific weapon type? Do you just have to suck it up?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure i can agree with that, but what about when the main quest your group wants to follow goes nowhere near any specific place you’d want to go for your specific weapon type? Do you just have to suck it up?

...yes? That sounds like a intra-PC issue, best handled in game through role-play. Just like if one person wants pizza but everybody else wants Chinese.