D&D General Reassesing Robert E Howards influence on D&D +

[Clint_L]

I would say that Tolkien had a far greater influence on the setting and on plots, once D&D started having plots to speak of, but Howard had a bigger impact on the style of gameplay, if that makes sense. But it's hard to tease Howard's influence apart from that of other authors, like Leiber. Tolkien is pretty singular.

 

[Blue Orange]

Skipping ahead to the ending, we have "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt".

Howard--style of play, fighters and thieves
Leiber--also style of play, thieves casting spells
Vance--cast-once magic
A. Merritt--?
HPL--the Mind Flayer's pretty Cthulhuesque (and was based on a picture of a Cthonian), but I'm not sure I see much of a connection personally.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Leiber--also style of play, thieves casting spells

A lot of setting elements as well. Both Greyhawk and Waterdeep are Lankhmar with the serial numbers not even filed off. I think many things that people think of as D&D setting tropes are actually just Lankhmar.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Anyway what do you think, just how important is Howards Conan and other such pulp writers to DnD
(PS while Tolkien may be cited in discussion, lets not make this a debate about the merits of Tolkien v REH)

Historically, they are Very Important.

Though, it's also one of the things that feels very old and creaky about the game sometimes. And it's less important now than it was.

While we can acknowledge the influence here, I think the game as a whole does better when it riffs on those concepts, rather than loyally emulating them. Howard died 90 years ago. Personally I'd say: honor the legacy, cite the sources, maybe approach the vibe, but don't imagine you can restore the past.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Until you got to the summoning.

but that wasn't flashy. Heck, most of it was off screen. Most of it was hypnotism, control over some pet monster, or I kill you by touching you. In fact, I'd posit that Howard didn't want flashy magic because there's less mystery around magic when it's flashy. And magic in Howard's book was all about being mysterious, feared, in the shadows, and cosmic. Pretty much what 60s/70s sword and sorcery was emulating.

 

[Shardstone]

The Barbarian should have been called the "Conqueror." Conquer magic, the plans of weaker fighters, and the obstacles in your way to take what you want. Alas, what could have been.

Anyway, it's so interesting to me that Gygax had these inspirations, yet the OSR routinely creates adventures about people that are nothing like Conan. In virtually every OSR game, the first handful of levels at the minimum are levels where you will likely die, can't do anything, aren't supposed to fight because of "combat as war," and so on. Meanwhile, Gygax waxes poetic about how Conan is flying around and slashing down whole platoons of people and literally choking half-giants to death (I forget the story name). Talk about a big miscommunication, but I don't know where in what direction or how it happened.

 

[Shardstone]

Hmm. I think Conan is less of the model for D&D than Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser are -- I remember being shocked at how much those books felt like D&D when I first read them -- but Conan, thanks to the comics and movies, is vastly better known.

The elaborate thieves guild, the petty wizard rivals (who are definitely quadratic in nature), the ramshackle and corrupt-but-lovable city with a whole underworld full of adventuring opportunities below them, and the now obligatory temple quarter full of dozens (or hundreds) of gods -- that's all from the Lankhmar books.

In contrast, I have a harder time drawing a line between Conan and anything in D&D. He's not the model for the barbarian (as has been said, he's a fighter/thief, as is Fafhrd). The magic level is far lower. The priests don't match how clerics behave or function in most games. I don't think there's even any monsters* that make the jump, beyond the general idea of snake people, but even then, the Yuan-Ti function a lot more like something from the Lovecraftian mythos.

* Maybe Howard's take on frost giants, but that's debatable.

Are you familiar with the short stories and books at all? Because he literally fights a giant dude that is indestructible, a space horror in a city of magic-drug-induced sleep, hordes of mutants and other monstrous enemies, and dozens and dozens of armed men, sometimes with magic included, sometimes with more monsters included. There's a lot of D&D in Conan.

 

[Voadam]

that of other authors, like Leibniz.

I think you mean Leiber. AD&D was arcane with wonky math, but not much calculus.

 

[Tonguez]

Skipping ahead to the ending, we have "The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt".

Howard--style of play, fighters and thieves
Leiber--also style of play, thieves casting spells
Vance--cast-once magic
A. Merritt--?
HPL--the Mind Flayer's pretty Cthulhuesque (and was based on a picture of a Cthonian), but I'm not sure I see much of a connection personally.

A Merritt - B4 The Lost City essentially. His stories were mainly lost world/lost citys inhabited by warring factions and a manipulative monster-god and its cultist.

You know, I've played D&D since 1e (and a LOT during 2e) and I don't remember how Barbarians played. (Actually, I don't remember Barbarians existing in 2e, nor Monks! But maybe just nobody I know played one.) What was their schtick, aside from lots of HP?

ODnD had a Beserker NPC subclass of fighting man and 1e Ad&D introduced them in Dragon 63 as a human only Fighter subclass. Barbs hate magic, shun magicusers and actively destroy magic items. Theyre okay with clerics though. In familiar territory they get survival, tracking, first aid and suprise (stealth) and they also get special abilities back protection (chance to detect and counterattack attacks from behind), detect magic and detect illusions.

2e Barbarians were Fighters with restricted weapon proficiency, increase speed, leaping, back protection and Terrain based survival, hide and track. The viking sourcebook introduced the Beserkr fighter who got Beserk (ie Rage), Shapechange (Wolf or Bear) and a Trance/Summon Wolf ability.

so yeah the 3e Barbarian follows the Bserker template more than the Barb, no idea why they didnt use the name…

 

[Kurotowa]

Hmm. I think Conan is less of the model for D&D than Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser are -- I remember being shocked at how much those books felt like D&D when I first read them -- but Conan, thanks to the comics and movies, is vastly better known.

The elaborate thieves guild, the petty wizard rivals (who are definitely quadratic in nature), the ramshackle and corrupt-but-lovable city with a whole underworld full of adventuring opportunities below them, and the now obligatory temple quarter full of dozens (or hundreds) of gods -- that's all from the Lankhmar books.

One of the things that Conan brings, besides a love of women and treasure (in that order), is the historical kitchen sink setting. REH made no effort towards a consistent world and instead threw Conan into all sorts of thinly disguised versions of his favorite historical moments. Off the top of my head I can point at stories that are basically "Conan and the Pirates of the Spanish Main", "Conan, Warlord of the Afghani Hill Tribes", "Conan on the American Frontier", and "Young Conan and the Murder of a Roman Patrician".

Any setting where crossing a border sends you to a different century and genre owes a lot to Conan. Places like Pathfinder's Golarion show this the most strongly of modern settings.