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D&D 5E [+]Exploration Falls Short For Many Groups, Let’s Talk About It

Undrave

Legend
In my view hit points should be lowered across the board anyway.

I'm really not sure what the solution is.
The solution is Healing Surges! D’uh!

You turn HP into an encounter-based resources with your healing surges being your daily resources. You don’t need to chip away at PC’s HP for like 5 fights before NOW things get dangerous, they can be dangerous right away but a fight won’t cripple you for the rest of the day AND you don’t need to have a magical healer! And no, Hit Dice don't do the same thing.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
The solution is Healing Surges! D’uh!

You turn HP into an encounter-based resources with your healing surges being your daily resources. You don’t need to chip away at PC’s HP for like 5 fights before NOW things get dangerous, they can be dangerous right away but a fight won’t cripple you for the rest of the day AND you don’t need to have a magical healer! And no, Hit Dice don't do the same thing.
I'm actually fine with fights crippling you, but @Hussar is a 4e fan, so that might work for him.
 



Undrave

Legend
I'm actually fine with fights crippling you, but @Hussar is a 4e fan, so that might work for him.
4e has the Disease/Curse track that can be used to model ACTUAL long term injuries, in a way that doesn’t rely only on magic to solve the issue.
Too many 4e cooties to ever get that passed

But missing the point. In 5e, only the last fight is ever really dangerous. Otherwise, you can stand pcs up right afterwards and carry on.

That’s the whole point of balancing on the “adventuring day”.
The point of using healing surges as a bank of daily HP is so that every fight can be dangerous. Of course, running out of Healing Surge is MORE dangerous, but you can use traps and environmental effect to drain those, in a way that Magic can't replace, even. What’s the point of having more encounters if only the last one in the day makes you do Death Saving Throws?
 

Hussar

Legend
4e has the Disease/Curse track that can be used to model ACTUAL long term injuries, in a way that doesn’t rely only on magic to solve the issue.

The point of using healing surges as a bank of daily HP is so that every fight can be dangerous. Of course, running out of Healing Surge is MORE dangerous, but you can use traps and environmental effect to drain those, in a way that Magic can't replace, even. What’s the point of having more encounters if only the last one in the day makes you do Death Saving Throws?
No, I'm totally with you on this. But, that's the problem. 4e balanced on the encounter. So, that meant that every encounter actually mattered. 5e balances on the adventuring day, which means the first three or four encounters shouldn't actually matter that much, unless you blow your daily budget in the first two or three encounters.

But, since the balance resets after each adventuring day, and nothing carries forward, you can't really use standard 5e attrition resources - HP and spells - to balance over a series of days. Only having one or two "challenges" in a day won't use any actual resources to be challenging, and nothing matters after each day. So, extended challenges like exploration cannot use 5e attrition resources.

4e allowed for this by having both individual encounters actually be equally challenging (balance over encounter vs balance over day) and then adding in things like the Disease track which allows for extended effects.

But, even 4e suffered from problems here. For example, the rituals could bypass exploration challenges. The Summon Mount (I think that was the name - Phantom Steed?) ritual granted more and more powerful mounts - able to traverse difficult terrain, and then flying - with a higher check. By jacking up bonuses, you could pretty much guaranteed having flying mounts at will. Which made our Dark Sun campaign very different as suddenly we no longer had to actually travel across country - we could simply fly over it at speeds that nothing could realistically catch us.

But, yeah, I do totally agree with you here. 4e handled exploration much, much better than 5e does. But, it doesn't matter. No matter what, you will never, ever be allowed to include 4e elements in 5e. Too many cooties.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
No, I'm totally with you on this. But, that's the problem. 4e balanced on the encounter. So, that meant that every encounter actually mattered. 5e balances on the adventuring day, which means the first three or four encounters shouldn't actually matter that much, unless you blow your daily budget in the first two or three encounters.

But, since the balance resets after each adventuring day, and nothing carries forward, you can't really use standard 5e attrition resources - HP and spells - to balance over a series of days. Only having one or two "challenges" in a day won't use any actual resources to be challenging, and nothing matters after each day. So, extended challenges like exploration cannot use 5e attrition resources.

4e allowed for this by having both individual encounters actually be equally challenging (balance over encounter vs balance over day) and then adding in things like the Disease track which allows for extended effects.

But, even 4e suffered from problems here. For example, the rituals could bypass exploration challenges. The Summon Mount (I think that was the name - Phantom Steed?) ritual granted more and more powerful mounts - able to traverse difficult terrain, and then flying - with a higher check. By jacking up bonuses, you could pretty much guaranteed having flying mounts at will. Which made our Dark Sun campaign very different as suddenly we no longer had to actually travel across country - we could simply fly over it at speeds that nothing could realistically catch us.

But, yeah, I do totally agree with you here. 4e handled exploration much, much better than 5e does. But, it doesn't matter. No matter what, you will never, ever be allowed to include 4e elements in 5e. Too many cooties.
The real issue is that 5E is trying to split the difference by having long and short rest classes. The result is the captain America “I can do this all day” day. You either go encounter or you balance for the day.

Or in order to stealth around cooties you make an encounter game but disguise it as adventure day like PF2 did.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
The solution is Healing Surges! D’uh!

You turn HP into an encounter-based resources with your healing surges being your daily resources. You don’t need to chip away at PC’s HP for like 5 fights before NOW things get dangerous, they can be dangerous right away but a fight won’t cripple you for the rest of the day AND you don’t need to have a magical healer! And no, Hit Dice don't do the same thing.

HD are the same thing, though. The main difference is that you don't really have a universal option to spend HD during a fight to recover, but since that gives us faster fights (which also mediate the need for healing), it's a price I'm pretty happy to pay...

There is a corollary to the exploration problem that is the short rest problem, of course...
 

M_Natas

Hero
No, I'm totally with you on this. But, that's the problem. 4e balanced on the encounter. So, that meant that every encounter actually mattered. 5e balances on the adventuring day, which means the first three or four encounters shouldn't actually matter that much, unless you blow your daily budget in the first two or three encounters.

But, since the balance resets after each adventuring day, and nothing carries forward, you can't really use standard 5e attrition resources - HP and spells - to balance over a series of days. Only having one or two "challenges" in a day won't use any actual resources to be challenging, and nothing matters after each day. So, extended challenges like exploration cannot use 5e attrition resources.
5e has attrition ressources for extended challenges. Food & Water (combined with Encumbrance in order to limit those two) and exhaustion. 5e even does have diseases that can get worse, that could be used.

The problem is, the rules for those get ignored the most often in 5e, because the implementation is bad (encumbrance is so high, you usually don't have to care and spells to bypass food & water like goodberry are availableto even the lowest level characters) and also distances are wonky. Who here had Wilderness travel/exploration that lasted for more than like two weeks?

So, now there are four solutions to tackle those WotC 5e systematic problems: 1. enforcing the tracking of food, water & encumbrance and other limited ressources ( for example arrows, torches),
2. Change the System,
3. Homebrewing (or creating your own 5e heartbreaker)
4. and/or implementation of narrative stakes (Time limits, in game failure states and stuff).

So, I'm in the camp of Homebrewing/creating my own 5e system and implementing narrative stakes whenever possible, while enforcing encumbrance and tracking of limited ressources trough better/easier rules.

In my spelljammer game I DM right now, I use the HouseDM resting rules (long rest only in safe locations like cities, long rests only regain HP equal to max. Hit Die + Con Mod).

That is mostly sufficient for Wilderness exploration because characters on the road/Wilderness only can do short rests, so now the adventure day is stretched from leaving town to entering town.

But I found that a little lacking. First of all the players don't have any chance other by DM Fiat to regain ressources in the wilderness and also only limiting HP gain in long rests is benefiting casters who get all their spellslots back as usual.

So I toyed with a new system: Gradual Gritty realism: the https://www.enworld.org/threads/lon...ty-realism-variant-rules.700415/#post-9162672

In effect it gives you back 0% to 33% of HP and Spell Slots per long rest depending on the conditions of in which you rest in (like camping in the forest during a rainy icestorm without fire, tent and sleeping bag will not give you any ressources back), while resting in a magical Regeneration spa will greatly speed up recovery.
Now ressource attrition is stretched over several days and 1 to 3 encounters a day can be enough for ressource attrition to matter. But also the players can influence the rate of ressource regeneration by bringing adventuring gear like tents and blankets and appropriate clothing for the environment which outside of rime of the frostmaiden is totally ignored by WotC 5e. With adventuring gear mattering, encumbrance now becomes important. I even invented a simple weather system, because now weather matters.

It also weakens tiny hut. You are still protected from the elements, but tiny hut now doesn't guarantee 100% ressource regeneration anymore. And it also weakens stuff like goodberry because now every spell slot counts. And it balances out Warlocks who usually got it enough short rests to keep up with long rest classes. It balances martials and caster also better then the current resting rules.

The biggest problem is to convince players to give it a fair try, because they only see "Oh no, we get nerfed!" and that is not official rules! And 90% of my players play casters, so ... yeah. Also it is a tad more complicated, so players also don't like that.

So I'm toying with another rest Variant idea:

Getting rid of all benefits of a long rest. Players regain at a long rest 1hp (maybe + Con Mod) and the lowest used spell slot back, so it will take a while, to get ressources back.
Instead healing and Mana potions will be the main ressource to regain HP and Spellslots.
Now we have magical ressources that say how long we can adventure and if you run out of Mana and Healing Potions, you have to turn around. That is also a good money sink, exchanging gold for "rest beenfits" and the DM can control the difficulty and pacing of the game bt the amount of healing and mana potions he gives out and also can balance casters and martials reactively during the game if any imbalance arises.
This rules are even easier and I think players are more likely willing to track healing and Mana potions.

What do you girls & guys think?

Also I'm trying to invent a new encumbrance system that uses more of a visual encumbrance tracking sheet that is easy to use at the table (because tracking encumbrance in VTT is not a problem).
The problem with the current encumbrance system is first, that tracking is not supported by the inventory part of the character sheet. In order to track you always have to add up the individual pounds of every item every time you add or redact something. Also there a no benefits of tracking encumbrance.

My system is slot based and a character has slots equal to their strength score. On slot equals roughly 10 pounds. Items have size categories ranging from 0, 1/10, 1/5, 1/2, 1, 2 to 5. In the inventory sheet items are sorted by size and grouped together so that for the smaller items a full group of items equals 1 slot. So when you write down an item into your inventory, l by putting it in the correct size category, 90% of the work of tracking encumbrance is already done. Now you only have to add up the groups to see how many slots total you used up.
Also if you are lightly loaded (less than 1/2 or 1/4 of slots used) you get benefits to movement speed and dex saving throws and for every slot used up over your limit your speed is reduced and more disadvantages are stacked the more your carry over your capacity.
So now you not only can easily track encumbrance, there is now also a reason to do it.
 
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Undrave

Legend
But, even 4e suffered from problems here. For example, the rituals could bypass exploration challenges. The Summon Mount (I think that was the name - Phantom Steed?) ritual granted more and more powerful mounts - able to traverse difficult terrain, and then flying - with a higher check. By jacking up bonuses, you could pretty much guaranteed having flying mounts at will. Which made our Dark Sun campaign very different as suddenly we no longer had to actually travel across country - we could simply fly over it at speeds that nothing could realistically catch us.
Rituals aren’t free, however. They just use a different set of resources (rather than spell slots) that could still be drained over time. It’s 70 gp of reagents a casting for 12 hours, after all, but I can see how it would need to be adjusted to fit in a more exploration heavy campaign. One thing to do is limit how much reagents are easily available, maybe even pushing PC to break down lesser magic items into residuum. How did you party achieve consistent 40+ Arcana checks to get those flying steeds anyway?

One thing to note that 5e does that could be applied to a 4e system is not automatically recovering every HD on a long rest. That could add to long term challenge if you only recover your CON mod +1 or something during a long rest (I’d give Bards a feature that lets them boost that recovery with a song) or make a full recovery contingent on an Endurance check with penalty based on how rough you’re roughing it.
HD are the same thing, though. The main difference is that you don't really have a universal option to spend HD during a fight to recover, but since that gives us faster fights (which also mediate the need for healing), it's a price I'm pretty happy to pay...

There is a corollary to the exploration problem that is the short rest problem, of course...
They really REALLY are not the same thing. Healing Surges were the back bone of pretty much everything healing in 4e. Healing Word? Needs a healing surge. Healing potion? Needs a healing surge. Surgeless healing was incredibly rare and usually limited to slow regeneration or high level Cleric Prayers. And Healing Surge meant that every instance of healing had roughly the same value for every class as it was ALWAYS 1/4 your max HP instead of leaving it to chance. Healing Word was good at every level because of that scaling and a potion that could grant you a healing surge was always useful. It also created a hard cap on how much healing could be used in a day for each characters, creating a universal daily clock. Yes, some class had more surges, but those were the classes that usually took more damage so it all balanced out pretty well in the end. Furthermore, the number of surges you had didn't grow with each level. You started with a class specific number +CON mod and it only increased when your CON mod would. Their value would improve with your max HP, but the number was stable and you started with a decent amount, this meant the number of fights you could endure in a day was fairly stable from level to level based on your role. I think it's stupid a Fighter and Wizard both only get 1 HD per level.

Healing Surges also had uses in rituals and could be drained by traps or environmental effects.

Healing Surges were intertwined with the system in ways Hit Dice can only dream of. The were literally a corner stone of it.
 

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