D&D General Is WotC's 5E D&D easy? Trust me this isn't what you think... maybe

[Oofta]

Yup. Combat in WotC 5e defaults to theater. It's a shame they aren't more honest about that (at least in the DMG), but I suppose, like you suggested, doing so would cut into sales.

I'll have to tell that to my players, that they're just imagining that on a fairly regular basis I push them to the point of near TPKs. They'll be relieved.

The game is, and has always been, as lethal as the DM and group wants.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'll have to tell that to my players, that they're just imagining that on a fairly regular basis I push them to the point of near TPKs. They'll be relieved.

The game is, and has always been, as lethal as the DM and group wants.

I said combat defaults to theater. Of course you can work to make it harder.

Please read what I write next time.

 

[Oofta]

I said combat defaults to theater. Of course you can work to make it harder.

Please read what I write next time.

The default for any given group should be discussed during a session 0. The guidelines are just that, a starting point. Add in that many people misinterpret CR and what deadly means, along with a sprinkle of monsters from the MM need to be revised and that's why I have a problem with saying that D&D is too easy. I don't care how you qualify it, I could just as easily state that D&D is extremely deadly because I go out of my way to kill off PCs by focusing fire and hitting people when their down.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I think a good example of the "combat ease" issue I have was last session.

The group arrives at the boss fight. 4 level 3s. Cleric, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard.

vs 3 ghouls. 2 drow. 1 gargoyle. 2 zombies.

They ambush the party. Ghouls and Zombies rush in.

Ranger drops a drow from range.

Cleric immediatly Turns Undead and we are down 1 Ghoul and zombie. Ranger and Rogue get out of melee thanks to disengage and or stealth and using ranged weapons.

Drow with xbow cant hit anything. Needs a 15 or better to hit the Cleric who is out front tanking.

Lone zombie is just there to hold them in melee. Can't hit anything anyways. Gargoyle is the real champ and savages the Wizard.

Ghouls cant keep the Rogue pinned down and try to the taget that wont run, the cleric. Can't hit him anyways. Cleric summons Spiritual Weapon.

The Rogue does get Paralyzed at some point but the fights practically over. Only one KOed was the Wiz who got back up on his feet one cure later.

Bad dice rolls aside. I either had to attack the Cleric who simply couldn't run away but I needed a 15 or better to hit. Go after the Rogue who can auto disengage. No one could see the Gloomstalker.

What I thought would be a hard fight was just another bump in the path. I mentioned earlier about a Wight. Thought that might be a fun fight with some zombies. Turn Undead and an easy clean up.

Yeah yeah could have just had more drow or zombies pop up but that almost feels like cheating to me. I guess I need to get over that feeling

You know what I really miss? Full immunity for monsters from damage if you didn't have a magic weapon. Half damage is still a lot of damage.

Had some great fights back in the day where the front line would keep a monster at bay while the magic users would attack it because it could only be hurt by magic. Add in a magic dagger tossed to the fighter to add a bit more damage. Some real fun clench moments. Plus it was real teamwork.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is an irrational premise that combined with the post I quoted earlier blames players &GM's for design that fails in all areas∆ as previously noted in the thread by myself and others. I'd reject it on its face, but seeing as you do not seem to have provided any support for the design creating the foundation of this blame shifting or failure it seems to have collapsed right out the gate and is in dire need of your support. None of what you described players doing is something 5e changed over past editions, 5e simply turned it into an explicit ability that strong arms the GM into allowing the trivialization to succeed as a foregone conclusion because the player has been provided what is presented as a solution in search of a problem.

∆ combat social and exploration.

I reject the idea that a DM can be strong armed into doing anything. If you believe otherwise that's fine, but I will never speak about the game from that premise because I find it false.

 

[TwoSix]

Yeah yeah could have just had more drow or zombies pop up but that almost feels like cheating to me. I guess I need to get over that feeling

Honestly, I think you just need to bump up your fights. That's a speed bump to a well-built 3rd level party, especially one with a Cleric, unless those drow are actual PC-like builds.

I mean, you're talking mostly +4 attackers, who do 10-12 damage each IF all their attacks hit. Against a cleric who probably has 19 AC, and the rest can ranged kite?

 

[DarkCrisis]

Honestly, I think you just need to bump up your fights. That's a speed bump to a well-built 3rd level party, especially one with a Cleric, unless those drow are actual PC-like builds.

I mean, you're talking mostly +4 attackers, who do 10-12 damage each IF all their attacks hit. Against a cleric who probably has 19 AC, and the rest can ranged kite?

One Drow was a beefy named guy but one Heat Metal spell later and he was handicapped. Plus again the Gloomstalker just cant be seen in the dark so yeah

 

[ezo]

To me this sounds like complaining that PCs can say they're going to the general store, knock off some coins and just add the equipment to their sheet without RPing locating the best shop and spending half a session haggling with the shop keeper. Some groups will want to gloss over it, some will want to RP it.

"Complaining" probably isn't the best word.

Most groups IME do not role-play PCs shopping for equipment. I would find it very tedious if a DM insisted on role-playing such mundane tasks and encounters in general. Occasionally it is done, but that is because the purpose is really to introduce an NPC, adventure hook, or similar.

I choose to see these as an opportunity to start a roleplay scene. Characters get a hint on where to start. The criminal PC knows where to go to find the local fence, maybe ask a few questions and get some illicit/cheap gear. It gives the DM a chance to introduce an underworld NPC who may have a job or two for the PC in addition or in return for the information. Same thing with the noble - the character gets a foot in the door into the political machinations of the area they're traveling in, trading favors and information for missions or possible intrigue or even introducing a returning NPC.

Sure, but all of these revolve around starting an adventure or during its process, not mundane situations.

Using the Criminal example. The PC already "knows somebody" and likely where they might be. Which is fine, but it means the rest of the group never has to try to find the fence, deal with other underworld elements in the process, etc. That "part" of the challenge, or scenario, is already done automatically by the PC background feature.

Generally, such things aren't huge issues, but sometimes they just take that extra little bit out of the equation, making it in essence (if not in reality) obsolete.

If the DM wants to skip over the interactions, or feels it doesn't apply, that's always their call. But I'd like to leave them in for the opportunity to give the players an avenue for mechanical benefits based on their backstory - to give them a springboard for abilities that aren't combat-centric.

Certainly, and depending on the current situtation in the game, sometimes they get glossed over, other times maybe only handled minimally, and yet other times are handled completely in game. It just depends.

 

[overgeeked]

You know what I really miss? Full immunity for monsters from damage if you didn't have a magic weapon. Half damage is still a lot of damage.

Had some great fights back in the day where the front line would keep a monster at bay while the magic users would attack it because it could only be hurt by magic. Add in a magic dagger tossed to the fighter to add a bit more damage. Some real fun clench moments. Plus it was real teamwork.

So add that back in.

 

[el-remmen]

As soon as I get a chance I plan to reread all the PHB backgrounds mentioned as "trivializing" challenges to see if I am missing something. But for example, sure your Outlander can forage food for up to 6 people, but nothing says that would not take up to six times as long depending on the environment (which the background description explicitly says can limit or straight up deny this ability's usefulness) and their d6+Wis Mod roll, increasing chances of random encounters and/or slowing travel to the point where it might have just been easier to buy some rations in town.