D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Mind of tempest]

Well what I mean is, the Witch is presented as being very different from other Wizards, gaining their power from an extraplanar patron and only being able to get spells from that patron or other Witches- this shows that there were different thoughts about the source of a Wizard's powers than just "book learnin'".

well yeah warlock likely descend from the idea but that does not mean they should refuse again.
that would be like returning druid to a subclass of cleric which solves nothing.

 

[James Gasik]

well yeah warlock likely descend from the idea but that does not mean they should refuse again.
that would be like returning druid to a subclass of cleric which solves nothing.

I was never suggesting that they do so, I was replying to a statement that there was never a division between Wizards in 2e.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes. And in exchange for that, they get fewer spells and a significantly worse spell list. Remember: even at peak efficiency, a Sorcerer can't really keep up with Arcane Recovery. And if they use even a single metamagic, they definitely can't.

I don't think arcane recovery should exist. Rapidly recharging magic is not the wizard thing.

Don't get me wrong, the Wizard is badly-made, if one cares about having mechanics that actually convey theme; it puts far too many eggs in the "cast more spells" basket and far too few in the "be an academic who does research to advance the frontiers of magic" basket...as in, absolutely none in the latter.

I don't think it is bad per se, but it could be much better. But as the core concept is "has a lot of spells" it is pretty easy to do passably, which they have done. But it is not terribly interesting.

There's no mechanic in the entirety of the Wizard class that actually does what the class's flavor says. You don't do research--ever. In that sense, Wizard is worse than Warlock by the standard @Crimson Longinus has used (which I do not; I am simply noting the problem): at least the Warlock's problem is simply that a Big Event is in the past. The Wizard is supposed to have this happen all throughout their career, but it is literally never actually a thing the Wizard personally does. All "research" is handled off-camera, presumed, implied. And plagiarizing others' research notes, even with payment, isn't research, it's simply copying.

I'd argue that hunting for ancient scrolls to copy spells from is the sort of Indiana Jones style research which fits an action adventure game. But there could be more, and I'd gladly swap the arcane recovery for something that would support this theme. The issue is that logical direction is altering and customising your spells, but that basically what metamagic is and that's currently the sorcerers only unique thing, so we cannot give it to the wizard.

Subclasses aren't as impotent as you imply, of course. Diviner, Transmuter, Evoker, and (with a DM that isn't antagonistic) Illusionist are all powerful in their own right. But they could be significantly better.

The issue with them really isn't the power, it is the blandness. D&D spell schools are not particularly evocative (yes, not even the evocation) or interesting conceptually (apart the necromancy) so building subclasses solely around them is a bad idea.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

In any case, if anyone has access to this amazing playtest sorcerer I'd really like to see it. I didn't participate the playtest, but I have some files, alas, it doesn't seem to be among them.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorcerers didn't steal metamagic, it was salvaged to give sorcerers something unique to do.

I agree with the "give sorcerers something unique to do"; I vehemently disagree with the "take metamagic away from wizards".

Wizard is the definite class that should be able to tweak and modify spells. Not on the spot, but home in the lab.

Don't try to call that "salvaging" something, as if metamagic was ruined by wizards being allowed to use it.

The problem was Sorcerer wasn't unique enough, and that was a problem WotC created entirely by themselves.

For those to young to remember, in 3E sorcerers traded one level's worth of magic progress for being able to escape Vancian casting. That is, Wizards needed to select (and lock in) specific spells in specific wizard slots each morning, and if they didn't need that spell during the day, too bad. In order to not have to do this (3E Sorcerers worked pretty much like 5E spellcasters in general), 3E Sorcerers had to give up one level's worth of magic progress. E.g. where wizards got Fireball at level 5, Sorcerers got it at level 6. But once they got it, they could spend all their magic energy (all their slots of high enough level) on Fireball. Wizards in contrast, could cast exactly as few or many Fireballs as they selected that morning.

But for 5E WotC decided to do away with Vancian casting, and now they were left with a Sorcerer with no compelling unique feature. Unimaginative as they were, they decided the only solution was to remove something quintessential from the Wizard for the sole reason to make Sorcerer feel less derivative and more unique.

So start again, and now find a solution that doesn't steal metamagic away from Wizards.

 

[James Gasik]

I don't think arcane recovery should exist. Rapidly recharging magic is not the wizard thing.

I have to admit, this feature does seem unnecessary, and I wonder why they felt the Wizard needed extra spell slots per day gated behind an hour nap.

 

[Corinnguard]

Is the topic of this thread just referring to the Sorcerer class in general (regardless of which D&D edition or 3pp it came from)? Or is it just referring to the Sorcerer class in D&D? Which is it because there probably are versions of this class that could make-up for the amount of dislike I have read on this thread. One such version appears to be Laser Llama's take on the Sorcerer class.*

Any thoughts about the Sorcerer classes from PF1, PF2 or Level Up?

*I really love their Magus class.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Well, for example, here's an excerpt from the Complete Wizard's Handbook. Reading this description, Witches seem less like Wizards and more like what we now would call a Warlock.
View attachment 354704

Interesting to know that the roots were there long before--but yes, I'd agree that this was more a matter of "there was desire for a Warlock before we had a Warlock" rather than "this was an inherent part of the Wizard concept."

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I don't think arcane recovery should exist. Rapidly recharging magic is not the wizard thing.

I mean, if I had my druthers, yeah, I'd be there with you.

I don't think it is bad per se, but it could be much better. But as the core concept is "has a lot of spells" it is pretty easy to do passably, which they have done. But it is not terribly interesting.

A core concept that is fundamentally not very interesting should not be a core concept in the first place. Isn't the point of offering a class at all that that class should be interesting to play?

I'd argue that hunting for ancient scrolls to copy spells from is the sort of Indiana Jones style research which fits an action adventure game. But there could be more, and I'd gladly swap the arcane recovery for something that would support this theme. The issue is that logical direction is altering and customising your spells, but that basically what metamagic is and that's currently the sorcerers only unique thing, so we cannot give it to the wizard.

See, I completely disagree that it makes sense as "altering and customizing" spells that exist. Instead, I see it as meaning that Wizards should have a build-your-own-spells toolkit. Such spells should never be as good as a spell that already exists...initially. You have to work on it. Perfect it. Find all the foibles and fix them. Add correction terms to the calculations. Perform perturbation analysis. Maybe do a Fourier transform to see if there are missing harmonics. (I could regurgitate more random math/physics terms here but I think you get the point.)

Wizards shouldn't be cribbing in the margins, making tiny changes to someone else's work. They should be, as I said, pushing the frontiers of magic. That's what they do; that's what they live for. Let the Sorcerers and Warlocks be stuck with whatever spells their biology or sugar-parent saw fit to endow them with; the Wizard creates her own power.

The issue with them really isn't the power, it is the blandness. D&D spell schools are not particularly evocative (yes, not even the evocation) or interesting conceptually (apart the necromancy) so building subclasses solely around them is a bad idea.

Oh, you won't hear any argument from me on that front either. But therein lies the rub: traditionalism is actively in conflict with developing better, more interesting, more worthwhile flavor. You'll never get an alternative that doesn't have at least 30% of fans committed and aggressively opposed to some part of it, and that unity will ensure its downfall in the 5e playtesting space.

Is the topic of this thread just referring to the Sorcerer class in general (regardless of which D&D edition or 3pp it came from)? Or is it just referring to the Sorcerer class in D&D? Which is it because there probably are versions of this class that could make-up for the amount of dislike I have read on this thread. One such version appears to be Laser Llama's take on the Sorcerer class.*

Any thoughts about the Sorcerer classes from PF1, PF2 or Level Up?

*I really love their Magus class.

I genuinely adore the 4e Sorcerer as a mechanical structure (it's a rock-solid "simple damage-dealer" design with interesting mechanics in each "subclass" in 5e terms), and if there were a way to merge it with the D&D Next playtest version, it would instantly become my second-favorite class ever (after Paladin, natch.) The whole transform-into-your-sorcerous-soul thing was just oozing with flavor, and I'm still just....angry and disappointed that it got completely and totally canned, never to even be looked at again, because a vocal minority didn't like that it was too different from 3e, an edition where Sorcerers weren't great.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

See, I completely disagree that it makes sense as "altering and customizing" spells that exist. Instead, I see it as meaning that Wizards should have a build-your-own-spells toolkit. Such spells should never be as good as a spell that already exists...initially. You have to work on it. Perfect it. Find all the foibles and fix them. Add correction terms to the calculations. Perform perturbation analysis. Maybe do a Fourier transform to see if there are missing harmonics. (I could regurgitate more random math/physics terms here but I think you get the point.)

Wizards shouldn't be cribbing in the margins, making tiny changes to someone else's work. They should be, as I said, pushing the frontiers of magic. That's what they do; that's what they live for. Let the Sorcerers and Warlocks be stuck with whatever spells their biology or sugar-parent saw fit to endow them with; the Wizard creates her own power.

That would be really cool, but also a total balancing nightmare, so I certainly understand why this is not a thing.