D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Minigiant]

There's more spell effects in 5E that are different vs 4E phb to phb.

Strawmanning. Putting words in someone's mouth they didn't say.

Gaslighting trying to make people think something they did not.

people have point blank said why they dont like 5E but you pull out some arguement someone said once upon a t8me sonewhere on the internet.

No one said anything about taking toys away from the wizard. Hell its not that popular a class on Beyond, surveys or BG info they released.

Go have a reread like I did a few weeks ago. Each level you get 4 options or so most are some among of damage+rider. The odd heal spell.

More variety in 5E.

The comment and discussion was not about the range of spells in 4e or 5e.

It was that the wizard and the sorcerer had separate niches and roles in 4e.

5e gave all the roles back to wizard and left sorcerer without a unique playstyle.

WOTC even attempted in the playtest to give Wizards Metamagic via the Modify Spell spell.

THANKFULLY the community rebelled and even wizard fans said "That's broken and stepping on the sorcerer's toes."

 

[Zardnaar]

The comment and discussion was not about the range of spells in 4e or 5e.

It was that the wizard and the sorcerer had separate niches and roles in 4e.

5e gave all the roles back to wizard and left sorcerer without a unique playstyle.

WOTC even attempted in the playtest to give Wizards Metamagic via the Modify Spell spell.

THANKFULLY the community rebelled and even wizard fans said "That's broken and stepping on the sorcerer's toes."

Erm sorcerer gets metamagic and bloodline abilities.

Wizards get bupkiss by comparison except more spells most of which are shared with the Sorcerer.

Since you tend to cherry pick the best spells anyway......

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Go have a reread like I did a few weeks ago. Each level you get 4 options or so most are some among of damage+rider. The odd heal spell.

This is exactly what I'm talking about: "damage+rider" is like simplifying 5e spells to "damage+saving throw." It pretends that something fantastically diverse--a "rider" effect can be LITERALLY ANYTHING--is uniform simply because of...where it shows up in the action??? That's an utterly ridiculous position to take. Just as pretending that absolutely every saving throw in all of 5e is somehow the same because it uses that mechanic.

More variety in 5E.

Only if you pretend rituals don't exist.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Erm sorcerer gets metamagic and bloodline abilities.

Yes. And in exchange for that, they get fewer spells and a significantly worse spell list. Remember: even at peak efficiency, a Sorcerer can't really keep up with Arcane Recovery. And if they use even a single metamagic, they definitely can't.

Keep in mind, though, that bloodline abilities are things like "free mage armor and +1 hit point/level" or "cancel out advantage/disadvantage a few times a day" or "get advantage on one roll, but now the DM can troll you." It isn't until you get to very high levels--levels I know you, personally, have many many times argued almost no one actually reaches or plays--that you get actually strong features, like flight, or (effectively) getting mini-crits on spell damage, or bonus-action teleporting between shadows.

Nobody is getting particularly powerful features in the first 6ish levels.

Wizards get bupkiss by comparison except more spells most of which are shared with the Sorcerer.

Don't get me wrong, the Wizard is badly-made, if one cares about having mechanics that actually convey theme; it puts far too many eggs in the "cast more spells" basket and far too few in the "be an academic who does research to advance the frontiers of magic" basket...as in, absolutely none in the latter. There's no mechanic in the entirety of the Wizard class that actually does what the class's flavor says. You don't do research--ever. In that sense, Wizard is worse than Warlock by the standard @Crimson Longinus has used (which I do not; I am simply noting the problem): at least the Warlock's problem is simply that a Big Event is in the past. The Wizard is supposed to have this happen all throughout their career, but it is literally never actually a thing the Wizard personally does. All "research" is handled off-camera, presumed, implied. And plagiarizing others' research notes, even with payment, isn't research, it's simply copying.

Subclasses aren't as impotent as you imply, of course. Diviner, Transmuter, Evoker, and (with a DM that isn't antagonistic) Illusionist are all powerful in their own right. But they could be significantly better.

Further, you're just wrong about sharing so much with Sorcerer in terms of spell lists. Using just the core books (not even looking at Acquisitions Inc. or the various Critical Role books etc.), the Wizard has 23 totally unique spells (exclusively Wizard, no one else gets them except by being part-Wizard, e.g. EK/AT, or taking a feat), while the Sorcerer has ONE signature spell: chaos bolt. Meanwhile, if we look at spells Wizards can cast but Sorcerers can't, there's a further 96 spells that aren't Wizard specific but which can't be cast by Sorcerers (for a total of 119 spells Wizards can cast that Sorcerers can't); conversely, there's a grand total of eight spells (counting chaos bolt) that a Sorcerer can cast that a Wizard can't.

The Sorcerer has a spell list containing all of 218 spells. The Wizard? 329. 111 more spells. More than a third of all Wizard spells can't be cast by Sorcerers--or, if you prefer, Wizards have access to 50% more spells than Sorcerers do. (Oh, and just in case you care: exactly one of those "Wizard but not Sorcerer" spells is a cantrip.)

Finally, adding in the other supplements/official collaborations/etc. doesn't change this--except to make a bigger gap in favor of Wizards (366 Wizard spells, 244 Sorcerer. The gap has increased to 122.)

Since you tend to cherry pick the best spells anyway......

Of course you do. Why wouldn't you? Even the Wizard--the one character that actually can (almost) learn All The Spells And Also All Of Them--has to spend money to do so. It's a risk, a danger, to take spells that end up being useless. Every spellcaster is always encouraged to only take those spells that are most worth taking, and the spellcasters who get fewer spells per day are the ones most encouraged to pick only the best, most-versatile, most-effective spells.

And, of course, every spell level has a set of them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes. And in exchange for that, they get fewer spells and a significantly worse spell list. Remember: even at peak efficiency, a Sorcerer can't really keep up with Arcane Recovery. And if they use even a single metamagic, they definitely can't.

Keep in mind, though, that bloodline abilities are things like "free mage armor and +1 hit point/level" or "cancel out advantage/disadvantage a few times a day" or "get advantage on one roll, but now the DM can troll you." It isn't until you get to very high levels--levels I know you, personally, have many many times argued almost no one actually reaches or plays--that you get actually strong features, like flight, or (effectively) getting mini-crits on spell damage, or bonus-action teleporting between shadows.

Nobody is getting particularly powerful features in the first 6ish levels.


Don't get me wrong, the Wizard is badly-made, if one cares about having mechanics that actually convey theme; it puts far too many eggs in the "cast more spells" basket and far too few in the "be an academic who does research to advance the frontiers of magic" basket...as in, absolutely none in the latter. There's no mechanic in the entirety of the Wizard class that actually does what the class's flavor says. You don't do research--ever. In that sense, Wizard is worse than Warlock by the standard @Crimson Longinus has used (which I do not; I am simply noting the problem): at least the Warlock's problem is simply that a Big Event is in the past. The Wizard is supposed to have this happen all throughout their career, but it is literally never actually a thing the Wizard personally does. All "research" is handled off-camera, presumed, implied. And plagiarizing others' research notes, even with payment, isn't research, it's simply copying.

Subclasses aren't as impotent as you imply, of course. Diviner, Transmuter, Evoker, and (with a DM that isn't antagonistic) Illusionist are all powerful in their own right. But they could be significantly better.

Further, you're just wrong about sharing so much with Sorcerer in terms of spell lists. Using just the core books (not even looking at Acquisitions Inc. or the various Critical Role books etc.), the Wizard has 23 totally unique spells (exclusively Wizard, no one else gets them except by being part-Wizard, e.g. EK/AT, or taking a feat), while the Sorcerer has ONE signature spell: chaos bolt. Meanwhile, if we look at spells Wizards can cast but Sorcerers can't, there's a further 96 spells that aren't Wizard specific but which can't be cast by Sorcerers (for a total of 119 spells Wizards can cast that Sorcerers can't); conversely, there's a grand total of eight spells (counting chaos bolt) that a Sorcerer can cast that a Wizard can't.

The Sorcerer has a spell list containing all of 218 spells. The Wizard? 329. 111 more spells. More than a third of all Wizard spells can't be cast by Sorcerers--or, if you prefer, Wizards have access to 50% more spells than Sorcerers do. (Oh, and just in case you care: exactly one of those "Wizard but not Sorcerer" spells is a cantrip.)

Finally, adding in the other supplements/official collaborations/etc. doesn't change this--except to make a bigger gap in favor of Wizards (366 Wizard spells, 244 Sorcerer. The gap has increased to 122.)


Of course you do. Why wouldn't you? Even the Wizard--the one character that actually can (almost) learn All The Spells And Also All Of Them--has to spend money to do so. It's a risk, a danger, to take spells that end up being useless. Every spellcaster is always encouraged to only take those spells that are most worth taking, and the spellcasters who get fewer spells per day are the ones most encouraged to pick only the best, most-versatile, most-effective spells.

And, of course, every spell level has a set of them.

I'm aware I've also seen ow lever sorcerers tear down the house with twinned ice knife/chromatic orb or dragons breath.

Twinned haste as well.

Arcane recovery seems to struggle keeping up with twin effects.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm aware I've also seen ow lever sorcerers tear down the house with twinned ice knife/chromatic orb or dragons breath.

Twinned haste as well.

Remember, Twinned as it has existed is being eliminated from 5.5e. It will still have rare, occasional uses, but nothing like what you have described here will continue to exist.

Meaning, one of the only ways a Sorcerer could actually keep up has been eliminated.

I must also, frankly, beg your forgiveness for thinking that Twinned ice knife is hardly a particular demonstration of power. Now, chromatic orb is halfway decent (especially since it's a spell attack, and can thus crit). Dragon's breath and haste are better, though you should know that it's highly controversial (and, AIUI, against rules as intended) for the former to work with 5.0 Twinned.

Arcane recovery seems to struggle keeping up with twin effects.

Not at all. Twinned already had very strict requirements, and put two spells on the same Concentration save. It was certainly powerful, yes--but that made it one of the only powerful things a Sorcerer could do. It was also extremely expensive, seeing as how you can do (effectively) spell levels = class level Twinned. If--and only if--you're able to spend every single point on Twinning spells, sure! But that also reinforces even more than before the need for one-trick-ponying.

Consider, for instance, the Twinned haste example. That's a 3rd level spell, so the character must be at least level 5. That means they can do it...once, perhaps twice, in a given day before something better comes along. And guess what the Wizard can do? Get an extra 3rd level spell for the day.

If not using Twinned--which is quite a common occurrence, given how restrictive the requirements were for it--the best you can do is converting SP to slots, which at best merely keeps up with Arcane Recovery. Which is what I was actually talking about.

 

[Zardnaar]

Remember, Twinned as it has existed is being eliminated from 5.5e. It will still have rare, occasional uses, but nothing like what you have described here will continue to exist.

Meaning, one of the only ways a Sorcerer could actually keep up has been eliminated.

I must also, frankly, beg your forgiveness for thinking that Twinned ice knife is hardly a particular demonstration of power. Now, chromatic orb is halfway decent (especially since it's a spell attack, and can thus crit). Dragon's breath and haste are better, though you should know that it's highly controversial (and, AIUI, against rules as intended) for the former to work with 5.0 Twinned.


Not at all. Twinned already had very strict requirements, and put two spells on the same Concentration save. It was certainly powerful, yes--but that made it one of the only powerful things a Sorcerer could do. It was also extremely expensive, seeing as how you can do (effectively) spell levels = class level Twinned. If--and only if--you're able to spend every single point on Twinning spells, sure! But that also reinforces even more than before the need for one-trick-ponying.

Consider, for instance, the Twinned haste example. That's a 3rd level spell, so the character must be at least level 5. That means they can do it...once, perhaps twice, in a given day before something better comes along. And guess what the Wizard can do? Get an extra 3rd level spell for the day.

If not using Twinned--which is quite a common occurrence, given how restrictive the requirements were for it--the best you can do is converting SP to slots, which at best merely keeps up with Arcane Recovery. Which is what I was actually talking about.

If you twin sonething twice in effect you get 2 lvl 3 slots vs wizards 1 extra slot via arcane recovery.

Low level wizards still kinda suck. A low level sorcerer even twinning basic spells like chromatic orb let alot dragons breath on a cleric is much more useful imho.

It's power vs versatility and a large part of the second is DM dependent on scribing scrolls.

 

[James Gasik]

Is it? Wizards have always used Intelligence as their core stat. They develop spells through research, and can share those spells in written form with other wizards. High-level early-edition Wizards would assemble (or occupy) towers and take on students, setting up the next generation of magic-users.

I've never seen anything that would indicate that wizard skill comes from anything other than reading books and being instructed. Elf magic worked differently, to be sure, but that was a byproduct of the (IMO decidedly not-great, to put it mildly) "race-as-class" system. And once you get to 2e (I don't know if this was true of 1e), the Dual-Classing and Multi-Classing systems pretty much put to bed any notion that wizardry is only for the innately magical or for boon-granted powers. Imoen, from BG2 onward, is perfectly set up to become a dual-class Rogue/Wizard (and, IIRC, if you don't import her from the previous game, she will actually be a Rogue/Wizard.)

Well, for example, here's an excerpt from the Complete Wizard's Handbook. Reading this description, Witches seem less like Wizards and more like what we now would call a Warlock.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well, for example, here's an excerpt from the Complete Wizard's Handbook. Reading this description, Witches seem less like Wizards and more like what we now would call a Warlock.
View attachment 354704

Witch is a wizard kit in that book. Its not all wizards.

In 5E archetype probably with a Warlock twist. Kinda like tomelock being a wizard twist (sorta).

 

[James Gasik]

Witch is a wizard kit in that book. Its not all wizards.

In 5E archetype probably with a Warlock twist. Kinda like tomelock being a wizard twist (sorta).

Well what I mean is, the Witch is presented as being very different from other Wizards, gaining their power from an extraplanar patron and only being able to get spells from that patron or other Witches- this shows that there were different thoughts about the source of a Wizard's powers than just "book learnin'".