D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Crimson Longinus]

The thing that moved me from CRPGs to TTRPGs is that personal expression. I make a character that I want to explore. I absolutely detest when MMO players call their characters "toons" and treat them as personality less pawns to move around the game. I went to D&D to escape that.

Obviously. But characters also tend to feel more real and compelling when they have connections to the setting and to the other characters.

 

[Epic Meepo]

As do I. And I'm the DM. But I recognize that I'm not here solely for my self pleasure. (There are easier ways to do that in the age of the Internet). My players fun is important too. It's a part of the give and take.

Incidentally, the statement in the above quote is the best argument a DM can make for me taking an interest in their setting. I tend to show people the same amount of consideration they're willing to show me. No more, no less.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, as I said, this isn’t a new thing. And it’s certainly not something exacerbated by 5e. It’s been like this for a very long time. Players, in particularly IME players who never DM, come to the campaign with fully fleshed out concepts and then expect the dm to adjust the game accordingly.

Hell it’s not malicious or toxic. Sometimes the player is just not considering implications and the dm doesn’t catch it. I’m guilty here. I’m playing a circle of wildfire Druid in an Avernus campaign. Talk about stupid. Here’s a character heavily focused around fire in a campaign where most of the baddies are immune to fire.

I wound up having to have a convo with the dm to fix my own stupidity. It got fixed to everyone’s satisfaction but, yeah I’m a perfect example of what I’m complaining about.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Ok I think I lost the point here somewhere along the way, please restate the point/request unless I have it right below:

Are you saying that you can't have a successful 5e game that doesn't have all the core 5e classes, and that's why you couldn't do a modern Dark Sun because you'd have to cut out a lot of the core 5e classes and fantasy tropes, rather than "here are ways that you can fit everything in the phb into this setting, even though it really shouldn't belong?"

Because I think that I might know of a couple different Kickstarters that did this, to different degrees, but I want to make sure I'm understanding the point first

I think they're refering to "commercially successful by Hasbro's standards." And in that case, I agree, I don't think you could do that by selling "5e but with fewer choices" unless you had a really strong positive hook, and even then not repeatedly. At least not for the same restrictions.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The question is 5e has been desgined to be flexible, modular, to allow all possible changes by the players, but DS is too limited for the current standars. I can say there are new sentient species in Athas thanks reincarnation spell, but extinct ethnic groups could reappear thanks this. Maybe this is possible in Tyr after Kalak's death (and some others in the Pentad Prism books) because when it happened they were sacrificed by order of the king-sorcerers. If changes are not allowed in DS, then this is like a static snow globe where you only can watch.

Or the "secret" faction of the City of Spires ruled by the lich Trith (from the Black Spine module) could have conquered the rest of the crimson sphere/Athasphere. Or maybe the ruler of the Galanaki city has become a dark lady.

In my DS not always the dead sentient creatures become only undead, lots of times they become elementals or even fey.

Maybe the Athasian tablelands we know has been chosen by enemy factions of chronomancers because if it is a dessert zone then the risk of collateral damages or atrackting too much antention is lower.

In my opinion the Athasian Tablelands are relatively "small" for current standars if you want campaigns without direct contact or conflicts against the king-sorcerers, and more in the highest levels. Too linked to the main metaplot, and previous experience with other titles shows this may be a serious handicap.

It would be really ironic a heavenly Athas as demiplane where blue and green age could coexist together thanks floating islands by carvorite mineral. This would be like a Tantalus' torture, with all those vegetation they can't eat with their defirler magic.

 

[FrozenNorth]

"If"?... I took the time to explain how that is done with fairly explicit references to both phrasing from wotc & linguistic choices in the PHB, Your "i don't agree" doesn't refute those facts or make any effort to explain why they are good. Failure to do either of those things when defending how players are encouraged to ignore & dismiss the GM's efforts is a pretty clear confirmation of the impact of those choices wotc made for 5e.

Players creating characters independent of the setting is such a common trope that it is lampooned in several webcomics that predate 5e. Goblins! makes fun of it in its first arc, when 3 of the PCs for the campaign are Drizz’t clones. Order of the Stick has an evil wizard that’s basically Drizz’t as a wizard.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Gamers: Dorkness Rising! also pre-5e) parodied this with a player who played an Elf Monk in a human-only campaign set in Western Europe.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I don’t think every species needs to have subs, but dwarves should have mountain and hill. Halflings IMO don’t need it

Halflings have subraces in the lore. Orcs do too, mountain and Grey and Scro.

 

[Mecheon]

Halflings have subraces in the lore. Orcs do too, mountain and Grey and Scro.

The problem is they're not all that interesting though, which is exactly why they're being dropped. The halfling ones were barely any different (with the exception of Ghostwise halflings who aren't core). "These ones are a bit more stout and those ones are a bit more tall" weren't really convincing things compared to the magic/nature divide of high/forest elves

And, well. I gotta be honest, mountain and grey orcs are basically just the same thing in a different colour, weird FR backstory aside, and Scro are just space orcs who's only difference (IE: being organised) really isn't. Much of a difference

That's the problem. The previous subraces weren't interesting enough to drag into their own thing and only existed to justify barely different stat blocks, as opposed to being genuine changes to the status quo. Those weird horned half-orc blademaster ones are at least more of an adjustment to things

 

[Yaarel]

So about them Dwarves.

There are about two, maybe three, cultures.

Hill and Mountain cultures have always been virtually identical.

The Duergar differ, but in 4e and 5e, feel "jump the shark". 4e had a beard of poisonous porcupine quill missiles. LOL! 5e has "aberration" "horrific experiments". Because Duergar are reallife Norse Dvergar, I care about how WotC represents them.

Essentially, the Hill-Mountain culture is the old school antimagic culture, or more specifically Anti-Arcane.

The Duergar culture is the mage culture. Even in 1e Duergar are psionic, which is great for an animistic earth being.


The standard player character Dwarf, is Hill (Gold) in 1e. But 3e Forgotten Realms makes Mountain (Shield) the standard. All the 1e Dwarves were +Constitution but −Charisma. In a Norse context, the lack of Charisma is not so terrible. The dvergar are normal human heights. They are powerful beings, but even when the other species are afraid of them, including the æsir, the dvergar dont seem to get respect. The disrespect might reflect a Norse cultural defiance against a bad fate, which dvergar can inflict. But in the context of Gygax D&D, the Charisma penalty feels more problematic, as if short people are less appealing. 3e Forgotten Realms, tweaks the penalty, assigning a Dexterity penalty to Hill and keeping the Charisma penalty for Mountain. 4e design without penalties makes the Dwarf +Constitution and +Strength/+Wisdom. Hence 5e 2014 makes Mountain a Strength bonus, and Hill a Wisdom bonus.

The ability improvements are irrelevant for 5e 2024 characters. But they can still be suggestive for the dwarven cultures, at least for specific institutions within a diverse dwarven culture.

The 4e Wisdom bonus is a nod toward the old school Dwarf Cleric. Actually, the 1e player Dwarf is strictly Martial only: Fighter or Rogue. But there was an NPC Dwarf Cleric that was competent enough. Sometimes the D&D old school Dwarf includes Divine magic despite being antimagic.


In a 5e context, we have at least some cultural distinction between Hill and Mountain.

• Hill culture makes Fighters and Clerics prominent, whence religious warriors, and 5e-style Paladins can now make sense.

• Mountain culture makes Fighter and Rogues prominent, whence hardcore Anti-Arcane culture.


And yet.

There is a faction of Hill culture that are great Druids, and primal magic, including Earth magic and wilderness Wildshapes.

There is a faction of Mountain culture that are great Wizards − comfortable in Earth metal armor − who apparently subvert Mountain culture.


More on Duergar later.