D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[EzekielRaiden]

"I really want to be the best Innkeeper in all the Dales. Truely! Fluff down service and Continental Breakfast for everyone! This is my Oath!" Gains magic powers.

I'm fairly sure you're being tongue-in-cheek with the example, but the real irony is the double subversion that there is a real, historical religious tradition beneath the shallow modern perspective. Far too many forget that Zeus, despite seeming like the god of one-night stands and bastard children, was in fact really important because he was the god of hospitality. He was Zeus Panhellenios, "of all Hellenes," yes, but he was also Zeus Xenios, Zeus-protector-of-Strangers.

I would absolutely, 100% be down for a genuine Oath of Hospitality Paladin. That sounds pretty awesome--if done correctly. Because there is something of the sacred in the bond between host and guest, between a fearful traveller taking a risk that this host can be trusted, and a fearful host taking a risk that this guest can be trusted. I imagine the Oath of Hospitality would strongly encourage wandering, providing succor to others especially in the dark and dangerous places of the world, collecting stories and interesting things to give in reciprocity to future hosts, and (when it's time to end the wanderings) looking for a great place to show hospitality to others.

But that's why the Oath of Hospitality would be more than just "I offer really good service!" It is a life genuinely and fully dedicated to making the world itself a more hospitable place, and to recognizing, assisting, and even rewarding those who put in effort toward that cause.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I'm assuming paladins in most D&D-like settings are fairly rare, as that rarity is generally part of the paladin trope. Maybe one person in 1000 who might try actually goes through the necessary training and swears an oath with enough conviction to gain paladin status.

PC paladins are simply one of those rarities. The fact that a PC can be a paladin says nothing about the relative occurrence of paladins in the setting.

I mean, we don't want to do some kind of system where class options for PCs are actually rationed based on their frequency within the setting, right? Right?

I always liked the idea that each god has ONE Paladin at a time. If the paly dies a new one is called. Like Buffy the Vampire Slayer

 

[DarkCrisis]

I'm fairly sure you're being tongue-in-cheek with the example, but the real irony is the double subversion that there is a real, historical religious tradition beneath the shallow modern perspective. Far too many forget that Zeus, despite seeming like the god of one-night stands and bastard children, was in fact really important because he was the god of hospitality. He was Zeus Panhellenios, "of all Hellenes," yes, but he was also Zeus Xenios, Zeus-protector-of-Strangers.

I would absolutely, 100% be down for a genuine Oath of Hospitality Paladin. That sounds pretty awesome--if done correctly. Because there is something of the sacred in the bond between host and guest, between a fearful traveller taking a risk that this host can be trusted, and a fearful host taking a risk that this guest can be trusted. I imagine the Oath of Hospitality would strongly encourage wandering, providing succor to others especially in the dark and dangerous places of the world, collecting stories and interesting things to give in reciprocity to future hosts, and (when it's time to end the wanderings) looking for a great place to show hospitality to others.

But that's why the Oath of Hospitality would be more than just "I offer really good service!" It is a life genuinely and fully dedicated to making the world itself a more hospitable place, and to recognizing, assisting, and even rewarding those who put in effort toward that cause.

Which goes back to the powers being divinely granted which isn’t what 5E says. My Innkeeper can just swear an Oath to themselves and gain power.

 

[Voadam]

I'm assuming paladins in most D&D-like settings are fairly rare, as that rarity is generally part of the paladin trope. Maybe one person in 1000 who might try actually goes through the necessary training and swears an oath with enough conviction to gain paladin status.

I think that is going to be very campaign specific and what the reference is (knights of the round table, companions of Charlemagne, Justice League, Green Lantern Corps). One in a thousand who might try means there might not even be enough to form even a single order of paladins in a typical world and not a lot of NPC paladins for any LG church to call on.

Most LG churches have orders of paladins in the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk according to a bunch of 2e sourcebooks, and I expect Thrane in Eberron is full of lots of them.

 

[Voadam]

Which goes back to the powers being divinely granted which isn’t what 5E says. My Innkeeper can just swear an Oath to themselves and gain power.

I don't think the "to themselves" is relevant, the oath by itself is the default part.

"Whatever their origin and their mission, paladins are united by their oaths to stand against the forces of evil. Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion."

 

[Kurotowa]

"I really want to be the best Innkeeper in all the Dales. Truely! Fluff down service and Continental Breakfast for everyone! This is my Oath!" Gains magic powers.

Ah yes, the Oath of What I Wanted To Do Anyway. I'm well familiar with that from the age old days of Vampire: the Masquerade and its Paths.

But okay, I'll play along and say the DM doesn't just flat ban any custom cheeseball Oaths. The two things about Oaths are that they give you blessings in proportion to how restrictive they are, and that you have to stick to them come hell or high water. So given the success rate of people sticking to their New Year's Resolutions, I'd say a lot of would-be Oaths get broken in the first couple of weeks. And even if our sworn innkeeper sticks to this, no matter how obnoxious the guest or dire the supply shortage, at best they're getting a cantrip or two. Congratulations, they're a devoted innkeeper with Prestidigitation. I think that's actually a cute little flavor detail, and in no way breaks the game.

 

[O-Castitatis-Lilium]

With evidence of Gods being being in DnD, I have a homerule for 5E that Paladins and Druids NEED to have a god in order to have their powers. To me, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. As far as I know Clerics still need a God to function in 5E, so the homerule applies to just the Paladin and Druid.

 

[steeldragons]

Faith is most certainly not enough to manifest divine power. Love, friendship, self-respect? All bunk. "Inner belief/belief in the self" as a justification means every delusional, schitzophrenic, narcissist, and/or just plain egotistical asshats in the game world would just be bursting with magic (which does, ya know, happen sometimes, but not as norm) just because they (truly and sincerely) "believe" they have it.

Your divine celestial power comes from somewhere beyond/outside/"above" (or "below") you....in the case of druids and connecting with the natural/primodial/elemental/physical world, more of a "next to/all around you." But still, a power source outside of the self.

Warlocks, similarly, need that outside connection (since they're cheaters and absconders of arcane power versus actual practitioners or masters thereof). Need the spoon-fed power and knowledge instead of possessing and developing their own, personal, power like REAL wizards/mages do.

The "I 'believe,' so look at my power" is bogus...and lazy world building. I've never bought this. Never will.

 

[TwoSix]

I think that is going to be very campaign specific and what the reference is (knights of the round table, companions of Charlemagne, Justice League, Green Lantern Corps). One in a thousand who might try means there might not even be enough to form even a single order of paladins in a typical world and not a lot of NPC paladins for any LG church to call on.

Most LG churches have orders of paladins in the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk according to a bunch of 2e sourcebooks, and I expect Thrane in Eberron is full of lots of them.

I think it's campaign specific too.

My broader point is that just because PCs can be paladins doesn't mean oath magic (or any other kind of magic) is freely available to every NPC.

 

[DarkCrisis]

With evidence of Gods being being in DnD, I have a homerule for 5E that Paladins and Druids NEED to have a god in order to have their powers. To me, it doesn't make sense to me otherwise. As far as I know Clerics still need a God to function in 5E, so the homerule applies to just the Paladin and Druid.

Clerics do not in fact need a god.

In the newest Faerun novel, the cleric of the group has no specific god but instead calls on different gods in the moment. Making promises or something.