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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)

Let's look at what that essay says (s-blocked for length):

All role-playing necessarily produces a sequence of imaginary events. Go ahead and role-play, and write down what happened to the characters, where they went, and what they did. I'll call that event-summary the "transcript." But some transcripts have, as Pooh might put it, a "little something," specifically a theme: a judgmental point, perceivable as a certain charge they generate for the listener or reader. If a transcript has one (or rather, if it does that), I'll call it a story.

Let's say that the following transcript, which also happens to be a story, arose from one or more sessions of role-playing.

Lord Gyrax rules over a realm in which a big dragon has begun to ravage the countryside. The lord prepares himself to deal with it, perhaps trying to settle some internal strife among his followers or allies. He also meets this beautiful, mysterious woman named Javenne who aids him at times, and they develop a romance. Then he learns that she and the dragon are one and the same, as she's been cursed to become a dragon periodically in a kind of Ladyhawke situation, and he must decide whether to kill her. Meanwhile, she struggles to control the curse, using her dragon-powers to quell an uprising in the realm led by a traitorous ally. Eventually he goes to the Underworld instead and confronts the god who cursed her, and trades his youth to the god to lift the curse. He returns, and the curse is detached from her, but still rampaging around as a dragon. So they slay the dragon together, and return as a couple, still united although he's now all old, to his home.
The real question: after reading the transcript and recognizing it as a story, what can be said about the Creative Agenda that was involved during the role-playing? The answer is, absolutely nothing. We don't know whether people played it Gamist, Simulationist, or Narrativist, or any combination of the three. A story can be produced through any Creative Agenda. The mere presence of story as the product of role-playing is not a GNS-based issue. . . .

Narrativist play makes special use of the general role-playing principle that the participants are simultaneously authors and audience. The common metaphor of improvisational jazz applies quite well, better than any other medium-comparison. "Entertainment," in role-playing in general and in Narrativist play especially, does not flow from playwright to script to production team to audience. Instead, the shared-imagining act = the shared-performance act = the entertainment = the audience feedback. . . .

For Narrativist play, the key is to focus on conflicts rather than tasks. A conflict statement is, "I'm trying to kill him," or, "I'm trying to humiliate him," whereas a task statement is, "I swing my sword at him." (It doesn't matter, by the way, how much in-game time and space are involved; conflict resolution can be "very small" and task resolution can be "very big." We can discuss this more on-line.) I submit that trying to resolve conflicts by hoping that the accumulated successful tasks will turn out to be about what you want, is an unreliable and unsatisfying way to role-play when developing Narrativist protagonism.

How does this relate to game mechanics? I'll take the most-common example of Fortune systems. The big distinction I want to make is between Fortune-in-the-Middle and the more commonly-understood Fortune-at-the-End. For the record, I think both go back to the very beginning of role-playing; I didn't invent anything by naming them. . . .

Fortune-at-the-End: all variables, descriptions, and in-game actions are known, accounted for, and fixed before the Fortune system is brought into action. It acts as a "closer" of whatever deal was struck that called for resolution. A "miss" in such a system indicates, literally, a miss. The announced blow was attempted, which is to say, it was also perceived to have had a chance to hit by the character, was aimed, and was put into motion. It just didn't connect at the last micro-second.

Fortune-in-the-Middle: the Fortune system is brought in partway through figuring out "what happens," to the extent that specific actions may be left completely unknown until after we see how they worked out. Let's say a character with a sword attacks some guy with a spear. The point is to announce the character's basic approach and intent, and then to roll. A missed roll in this situation tells us the goal failed. Now the group is open to discussing just how it happened from the beginning of the action being initiated. Usually, instead of the typical description that you "swing and miss," because the "swing" was assumed to be in action before the dice could be rolled at all, the narration now can be anything from "the guy holds you off from striking range with the spearpoint" to "your swing is dead-on but you slip a bit." Or it could be a plain vanilla miss because the guy's better than you. The point is that the narration of what happens "reaches back" to the initation of the action, not just the action's final micro-second.

There's a whole spectrum of extreme connect/disconnect between conflict and task. At one end, the task does fail, but the goal fails too, perhaps with a nuance or two. The other end is much wider in interpretative scope: we know the character's goal (killing some guy) doesn't happen, but with those in place, narration takes over to provide all the events involved. Applying different judgments along this spectrum, for different parts of play, is a big deal in games like Dust Devils, Trollbabe, Sorcerer, and HeroQuest. In Sorcerer, failing a dice roll means failing the goal, almost always due to failing at the task; in Dust Devils, certain card outcomes dictate that you fail at the goal, but whether the task failed or succeeded within that context is entirely up for grabs and determined by that scene's designated narrator. HeroQuest and Trollbabe permit the group to customize between these extremes as they see fit for that scene.

Fortune-in-the-Middle as the basis for resolving conflict facilitates Narrativist play in a number of ways.

  • It preserves the desired image of player-characters specific to the moment. Given a failed roll, they don't have to look like incompetent goofs; conversely, if you want your guy to suffer the effects of cruel fate, or just not be good enough, you can do that too.
  • It permits tension to be managed from conflict to conflict and from scene to scene. So a "roll to hit" in Scene A is the same as in Scene B in terms of whether the target takes damage, but it's not the same in terms of the acting character's motions, intentions, and experience of the action.
  • It retains the key role of constraint on in-game events. The dice (or whatever) are collaborators, acting as a springboard for what happens in tandem with the real-people statements.
Not all versions of this principle are alike. Some of them involve scene-scale resolution (Story Engine), some involve narration-trading (Dust Devils), some are heavily integrated with tactics (The Riddle of Steel), and some of them require role-playing "bits" to justify incorporating system features (The Dying Earth). . . .

Does Fortune-in-the-Middle define Narrativism? No, nor does it even facilitate it in isolation. It's merely a strong component of many Narrativist-facilitating combinations of Techniques; I've left its potential integration with reward and behavioral mechanics out of this discussion.

Is there such a thing as Fortune-at-the-beginning? Playtesting so far indicates that it's not very satisfying for Narrativist play; see discussions at the Forge of Human Wreckage and The World the Flesh and the Devil.

Is Fortune the only resolution method for conflict resolution? The answer is emphatically no. The two main alternatives are apparently Karma + Resource management, which I consider to be underdeveloped at this point, and highly-structured Drama, which may be investigated through Puppetland, Soap, and to a lesser extent Universalis. . . .

Since Exploration is best understood as a medium and tool in Narrativist play, rather than a product itself, the role of "in game reality" needs some review - not so much about who has authority over it (the usual concern in Simulationist play), but what the heck it is. The answer is, it's a medium and tool for addressing Premise, and nothing more at all. . . .

Before going on, I'll take a quick break to discuss "narration," which is no more and no less than saying what happens in the imaginary events. I want to distinguish saying what happens (narrating) from establishing what happens (currently a non-named concept), because they are often confused. I'm taking the

I'll break it down.

  • Narration is not a Drama mechanic unless it is literally the means of resolution.
  • Narration is in practice shared among members of a role-playing group and far less centralized than most people think.
The only concern about narration per se is that its relationship to establishing-what-happens must be clear. That entails that how things are established is itself clear: is it ad-lib? is the GM where the buck stops? is it traded about, organized in any way? or what? Those are good questions, but once they're established, narration is a no-brainer.

Game texts are typically astonishingly bad at explaining this issue. Positive exceptions for Narrativist-leaning games include Soap, The Pool, and Universalis, and other recent games like InSpectres, Otherkind, Dust Devils, Trollbabe, and Donjon, which all distribute narration around the group as a means of distributing who establishes what. . . .

Earlier, I listed some of the various roles and tasks usually associated with the term "GM." As I said, the question is not whether there is a GM (there is always one or more for any scene during play), but rather how the GMing tasks are distributed. The potential range of diversity is staggering. The most important variables include: - Which of these roles are most important to be formalized for this game - Whether the roles are centralized in one person - The concept of "the buck" - in the event that different people suggest different things, who says what goes

In the interest of space and keeping the complexity of these sections limited, I'll only provide examples for the centralization-issue. - Centralized: The Riddle of Steel, Sorcerer, Orkworld, Castle Falkenstein, HeroQuest, The Dying Earth - Widely distributed: Universalis, Soap - In between: Trollbabe, The Pool, InSpectres, Dust Devils, Violence Future . . .
Classically, a story has the following structure: (a) introduce character and situation, (b) introduce conflict, (c) rising conflict, (d) climax, and (e) resolution, of which (a, b, d) are the key pieces. Most stories indeed follow this model regardless of their chronological presentation, point-of-view, or any other details. There's usually no particular worry that Narrativist play will fail to produce a story (of whatever quality), without any overt effort to force it. However, it is also at least possible for overall story structure to be part of System. . . .

Character behavior mechanics
This topic is potentially rather a sore point among role-players, unless they have experienced play which shows the diverse strong points along the entire spectrum. It concerns how limited characters' behavior may be.

At one end of this spectrum, there's nothing of the kind: just contextual material that prompts the issues and perhaps a character descriptor here or there. The primary engine for Narrativist play is purely personal fascination with the issues at hand and with working them out. Castle Falkenstein, The Whispering Vault, and Over the Edge are good examples.

Moving just a little over, characters' behavioral descriptors are required, but they don't have any special role in determining what the character does - except for providing secondary bonuses to some resolution events, as in The Pool and HeroQuest.

Moving well toward the other end of the spectrum, specific behaviors have generalized consequence mechanics. Sorcerer, Trollbabe, Dust Devils, The Riddle of Steel, and Orkworld are all examples - the characters have free will regarding what to do, but immediate mechanics provide significant effects.

Far at the other end of the spectrum, behavior is heavily structured, for either or both character-creation and scenario-play. This kind of game often entails playing "against yourself" for the character, and the GM is potentially semi-adversarial, even ruthless, playing both external and internal adversity. Examples include Wuthering Heights, Extreme Vengeance, Violence Future, My Life with Master, Le Mon Mouri, InSpectres, Otherkind, and The Dying Earth. "Schism", "Urge", and other sorcerer/demon combination versions of Sorcerer effectively shift the game's play into this category.
Maybe we should consider the possibility that this essay is simply wrong, and it's categorisations unhelpful and counterproductive?
 

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Maybe we should consider the possibility that this essay is simply wrong, and it's categorisations unhelpful and counterproductive?

It's wrong about the games that were designed around its methodology? Many of which Daggerheart is inspired by? Say what you will about the other essays, but the Story Now essay was laying the groundwork for games that were actively being designed and developed at the time. Games like Blades in the Dark, Apocalypse World, Apocalypse Keys, The Quiet Year are part of that lineage. I think it would be very silly to disregard what the creators of the foundational games of that lineage have to say about what they were trying to do.
 

It's wrong about the games that were designed around its methodology? Many of which Daggerheart is inspired by?
It's possible to deign a game using a methodology that is inherently defective. The game might even work. But it doesn't mean people are necessarily going to play it in the way the flawed theory expects.

You see a lot of it in business, and in political economics. People believe without question in the ideology, then can't understand why it all goes wrong (usually assigning the failure to mysterious dark forces, rather than flawed ideology).

Maybe the theory even works in some situations. But that doesn't mean it should never be questioned. Unquestioning faith is a dangerous thing.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Ok, so are you denying that "Ten Candles" works that way?

No, not at all. I don’t think people tend to be talking about Ten Candles when it comes to “narrative RPGs” though. It’s more a storytelling game like Dread or Fiasco.

Some folks don’t classify those games as RPGs. I wouldn’t go so far, I’m fine doing so… but I think they fall into a different subcategory of their own.

Got any others? Any of the ones that have been mentioned by others in this thread?
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
It's possible to deign a game using a methodology that is inherently defective. The game might even work. But it doesn't mean people are necessarily going to play it in the way the flawed theory expects.

Except there are actual examples of games designed this way that actually work this way and are played this way.

I’d consider that more meaningful than your vague hypothetical examples.
 

pemerton

Legend
Maybe we should consider the possibility that this essay is simply wrong, and it's categorisations unhelpful and counterproductive?
To add to @Campbell's reply: how can the essay be wrong about the agenda of play that it, as much as anything and anyone else, carved out as a thing we could think and talk about in the world of RPG play? As far as analysis goes, for the RPGs that it mentions and that I am familiar with or have played - The Dying Earth, HeroWorld/Quest, Prince Valiant, Maelstrom Storytelling, Wuthering Heights - it is spot on. Does you experience with those RPGs tell you otherwise?

And the agenda that it is concerned with - thematically-oriented player protagonism - is a natural one to emerge in the RPG medium, and one that - to some or other extent - I had been aspiring to for about 15 years before I read that essay. The essay crystalised, for me, what I was trying to do; and also explained why AD&D and RM had been relatively unpromising vehicles for achieving it.

As far as the claim that it is counterproductive, I already noted upthread that, on p 288 of Apocalypse World, Baker says that:

The entire game design follows from “Narrativism: Story Now” by Ron Edwards.​

Given that AW has been the most influential thing in RPG design in a long time, perhaps since RuneQuest; and given that the game this thread is about, DaggerHeart, is an offshoot of Baker's design; how can you possibly assert that the essay was counterproductive?

It's possible to deign a game using a methodology that is inherently defective. The game might even work. But it doesn't mean people are necessarily going to play it in the way the flawed theory expects.
And is this based on your play experience with Apocalypse World, or the other games mentioned by Edwards, or self-consciously influenced by his writing?

Unquestioning faith is a dangerous thing.
As is ignorance.

I don't cite Edwards because of faith. I cite it because it is insightful.
 

No, not at all. I don’t think people tend to be talking about Ten Candles when it comes to “narrative RPGs” though. It’s more a storytelling game like Dread or Fiasco.

Some folks don’t classify those games as RPGs. I wouldn’t go so far, I’m fine doing so… but I think they fall into a different subcategory of their own.

Got any others? Any of the ones that have been mentioned by others in this thread?
Then you have story telling games like Dixit. Where do you draw the line? Or, I think the more important question is SHOULD you draw a line? My opinion is trying to put things into boxes can lead to a failure to see what is really going on. It’s inherently reductionist.

You can role play in Cluedo if the players want.
 

pemerton

Legend
Except there are actual examples of games designed this way that actually work this way and are played this way.
Are you dogmatically relying upon the evidence of your own experiences?

I’d consider that more meaningful than your vague hypothetical examples.
None were given, were they?

You can role play in Cluedo if the players want.
Do you mean that people can talk in funny voices, and say funny things, that have no affect upon the actual resolution of the moves the players make in the game? In that case it's not a RPG - the imagined stuff is not relevant to the actual making and resolution of moves.

Or do you mean that it might be possible to design a new RPG that uses the Cluedo board and pieces as elements in its framing and resolution systems? In which case, perhaps, but what is it going to offer us that we don't already get from GUMSHOE?
 

Are you dogmatically relying upon the evidence of your own experiences?
Have you heard of D&D? It managed to be somewhat successful, despite very rarely being played the way it's original designers intended.
Do you mean that people can talk in funny voices, and say funny things, that have no affect upon the actual resolution of the moves the players make in the game? In that case it's not a RPG - the imagined stuff is not relevant to the actual making and resolution of moves.
So, you would consider D&D not an RPG? Since people regularly do funny voices for their characters, and it doesn't affect the outcome. This is a good example of dogmatic definitions leading to ridiculous conclusions.
 

Clint_L

Legend
It's just not a black or white situation. Like...most situations.

Every RPG is a narrative game. That's a defining feature of them. So really, we are talking about a continuum, with an RPG that is heavily rules invested one one end, particularly with a lot of specific rules to resolve conflict, and RPGs that are rules lite on the other, and do not have separate rules concerning conflict/combat.

Fiasco is at the extreme end of the latter. Everything is resolved narratively, with rules and dice mechanics (or card mechanics in the latest edition) being there to give a bit more structure to the narrative, but not to determine outcomes. At the other end, you have systems like Rolemaster, GURPS. D&D 5e skews more towards the latter, for sure, but is probably the most narratively inclined version of the game since OD&D.

Daggerheart looks like a significantly PBTA-inspired game, so for me that would put it somewhere around the middle of the continuum.
 

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