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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)

pemerton

Legend
In a mechanistic game, a test or challenge gives you a result. In a narrative game, the game asks you to provide one.
Can you give actual examples?

I mean, what is the result of a failed Persuade test in 5e D&D? Or of a successful one?

What is the result of a successful Stalk/Hide roll in Rolemaster? Of a failed one? Or of a successful roll on the Influence/Interaction table? The 111-175 result on that table is "SUCCESS: You have influenced your audience." What does that mean? Does that make Rolemaster a narrative game?
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Fine, you can use words as you like.

But please don't equate your use of "narrative" - which is, basically, about certain mechanics - as having anything to do with AW, BW, narrativism as defined in GNS, etc.
As I said, whether or not a game is narrativist in the Edwards sense, if it has narrative mechanics by the definition you know I use (and AW and I suspect BW both do, in the form of direct player action or GM instruction and restriction), then it is a narrative game to me. Whenever I use that term, that is what I mean.

I will try to avoid using the term "narrativist" moving forward unless I'm sure it applies.
 

pawsplay

Hero
I think it is clear there's a bunch of people here who would like to 'take back' the usage that Edwards coined 20 years ago, with the additional caveat that he doesn't label anything as being 'narrative'. He DOES define, or at least use, the terms Narrativist and Narrativism as terms however, with a fairly specific meaning. While there may be some people who would rather his usage was forgotten, or feel that their own ideas better fit that label, that is unfortunately not how the world works, generally. Edwards' coinage was fair, he explains it in terms of NOT reusing other existing terms in a confusing way!

Okay. I'm glad you got that off your chest

In any case, 'general methods of resolution' is pretty vague, all games have 'methods of resolution' and I would consider most of them to be pretty 'general'.

Most RPGs rate things in terms of success, or failure, possibly with degrees. Some have complications attached to certain actions. In PbtA games, the best games, and the best rules in those games, have a pretty specific result when certain conditions occur. They are discrete results. They are "general" in the sense of being versatile, and up to you to color with specific images or details, but they give you something.

As opposed to a game telling me, "Now the character suffers in escalation in Despair." I am in exactly the same situation as when I'm staring at a blank page of my novel, and I think, "Now I think the character suffers from despair at their plight. What causes this and what form does it take?" I know from my experience doing free-form, that ideally, you don't have too many of these moments. They are a lot of work. Sometimes they are too artificial and deflate pathos.

I don't understand what you even mean by this, how does play proceed from here?

You tell me. I was informed above that some games have "hope" as the possible outcome of a check.

In my view, every resolution in a game should GIVE you something. GURPS or D&D gives you success or failure. PbtA, the same (at least, the better ones). A good storytelling-oriented game gives you seeds and things to act on, and then encourages you to let those things unfold.

A game that says, "Now come up with an exciting way the character succeeds," is ASKING for something. A game that is just a series of storytelling prompts is a game that feeds on human blood. Ideally, a very mechanistic game, as I would define it, gives clear outcomes with enough room to describe the result. Ideally, a good narrative game provides a general outcome, and frames it in such a way that the group is empowered to follow the consequences to their logical ends, and spawn new situations to evaluate. It's a problem when a mechanistic game occasionally tells you to just "go wild." It's a problem when a narrative game doesn't give you enough framing to actually resolve anything.

Games that are at more of a midpoint between mechanistic and narrative can have either or both sets of those kinds of problems. My big complaint about Dungeon World is that it does things I don't want it to, and doesn't do things I do; it constrains a lot of choices by defining very specific things about characters and certain procedures, but then some of the Moves just ask me to make up stuff on the spot. So it's challenging to "re-skin" the mechanistic elements, and challenging to get the "make story" parts of the game to answer questions raised by various tests and challenges. So it has a little bit of leakage at both ends.

An example of a very narrative game I was in was a forum-based Vampire game. It used the Vampire: The Masquerade rules for chargen but was played mostly diceless. The main rules were that you couldn't do more than two "scenes" per day in your posts, you had to acknowledge the passage of time implied by other people's scenes, and you couldn't kill, permanently imprison, or "out" anyone's character as anything without their permission. Within those precepts, someone could just post one day, "Jason is out for his evening prowl, looking for possible victims. He's in the club district. He looks dressed for a night out, but his dark attire seems a little out of place." So any player can then respond, and anyone who wants to can establish they are taking actions that same night. That's narrative. Virtually everything is handled by first narrating it, then resolving any conflicts between actions. All the players and all the mods have a great deal of authority to narrative The World. It's very different from a more mechanistic game that treats each player character, each vehicle, as a conveyance from the player's senses, with some authority like the GM telling them what they experience. People advance the game literally just by telling stories, even narrating things outside their character's control; this is different from a mechanistic game, where their success is likely dependent on their personal competence, and their attempt to perform tasks over which they have control.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Can you give actual examples?

I mean, what is the result of a failed Persuade test in 5e D&D? Or of a successful one?

What is the result of a successful Stalk/Hide roll in Rolemaster? Of a failed one? Or of a successful roll on the Influence/Interaction table? The 111-175 result on that table is "SUCCESS: You have influenced your audience." What does that mean? Does that make Rolemaster a narrative game?

First of all, just because a game is more narrative in focus, or not, does not remove other elements. All RPGs involve narration, and all involve mechanistic systems, or the wouldn't be RPGs.

"You have influenced your audience," is pretty concrete. Whatever might be reasonably accomplished by that is something you might accomplish.

On the other hand, imagine you are playing a game, and you use an Influence/Interaction ability, and you get, I don't know, "The Seven of Swords and The Tower." So, while you are trying to use influence, maybe one of your companions drifts away from you and is not there to support there. Meanwhile, one of your prospective allies in the audience aproaches you, seemingly charmed... but it's an act, they plan on betraying you. There's nothing about the result that simply tells you what happens. You have to invent something. That's not mechanistic. Even though you are using a couple of tarot cards to definitely guide the action, the cards themselves are just giving you themes. They may not even imply success or failure, per se.
 

pemerton

Legend
I have had the misfortune of having read much of the forge, going back as far as I could. I don't think its coincidental I kept getting the impression a lot of their motivations were rooted in really, really bad DMs screwing over their OC characters. Or just their characters being bad because they didn't actually like the game they were playing enough to make a good one. Even still today, I believe a lot of people don't actually like RPGs but don't otherwise know how to articulate what they do like and go do that instead.
If you conclude that Czege, Edwards, Baker, Crane and crew "dont' actually like RPGs", I think you need to go back and re-read. These are people who have given their whole lives and intellectual efforts to these things, and written some of the best examples of the game form!

I mean, Luke Crane loves RPGs so much that he designed one, Revised it, revised it again (Gold) and again (Gold revised). And during all that, went and played Moldvay Basic hard, and helped Thor design another one (Torchbearer).

Baker loves them so much he gave us In A Wicked Age, and then DitV, and then Apocalypse World which - as I posted upthread - is arguably the most impactful RPG since RuneQuest.

You can see the love of RPGing in their designs, in their commentary, in Baker's case in his huge body of analytical and design notes. Edwards love of RPGing comes through in his essays, in a profound way.

The fact that you can't see player-driven, protagonistic RPGing through any lens other than "bad DMs screwing over their OC characters" makes me think that your conception of RPGs not only centres, but is confined to, GM-driven stortyelling of the sort that became predominant in the mid-80s or thereabouts.
 

pemerton

Legend
As I said, whether or not a game is narrativist in the Edwards sense, if it has narrative mechanics by the definition you know I use (and AW and I suspect BW both do, in the form of direct player action or GM instruction and restriction)
As I have frequently posted, including in this thread, AW does not have what you call "narrative mechanics" - unless you consider an instruction to the GM about the content of consequence narration to be a narrative mechanic.
 

pemerton

Legend
imagine you are playing a game, and you use an Influence/Interaction ability, and you get, I don't know, "The Seven of Swords and The Tower." So, while you are trying to use influence, maybe one of your companions drifts away from you and is not there to support there. Meanwhile, one of your prospective allies in the audience aproaches you, seemingly charmed... but it's an act, they plan on betraying you. There's nothing about the result that simply tells you what happens. You have to invent something.
Although your reply to @AbdulAlhazred has clarified things a bit, I still don't know what RPGs you have in mind.

If the RM Influence and Interaction result is not "narrative" in your sense, then it seems that Apocalypse World wouldn't be either.

You say that Dungeon World "requires you to make things up on the spot", but I mean so does classic D&D. (Like, you roll 12 on 2d6 for your monster reaction check - now you have to make up what the monster says, why they are so friendly, etc.)

I don't see AW or DW or Burning Wheel as being any different from classic D&D in requiring things to be made up. But they are different in the principles that the GM is meant to conform to in making things up.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Although your reply to @AbdulAlhazred has clarified things a bit, I still don't know what RPGs you have in mind.

If the RM Influence and Interaction result is not "narrative" in your sense, then it seems that Apocalypse World wouldn't be either.

You say that Dungeon World "requires you to make things up on the spot", but I mean so does classic D&D. (Like, you roll 12 on 2d6 for your monster reaction check - now you have to make up what the monster says, why they are so friendly, etc.)

I don't see AW or DW or Burning Wheel as being any different from classic D&D in requiring things to be made up. But they are different in the principles that the GM is meant to conform to in making things up.

I don't consider PbtA games very narrative. Like on a scale from one to 10, with Rolemaster being a 2 on the mechanistic side, and "freeform but playing with a a net, and ostensibly using some published system" being like a 9, I would place most PbtA games at about a 6 or a 7. I consider them pretty much a hybrid of narrative and mechanistic games. You can, and probably will, say, "I speak from my heart and try to romance the guard captain," but you can also say stuff like, "I try to run toward the guards and slide past them on the floor like Mega-Man," and both are valid Moves.

Like I would say Thirsty Sword Lesbians is a medium, medium-narrative game. "Finally Kiss, in a dangerous situation" obviously helps move things along narratively, but in practical turns it's a Move you take on your turn, that gives you an ongoing +1 to certain tasks.
 


soviet

Hero
"You have influenced your audience," is pretty concrete. Whatever might be reasonably accomplished by that is something you might accomplish.
Who decides those two 'might's though?

Have I influenced the audience to do exactly what I wanted, at any and all cost, no matter how extreme?

Have I influenced the audience to do what I want, so long as it's without significant cost to them?

Have I influenced the audience to do sort of what I want, but just for now, and to be revisited if circumstances change?

Have I influenced the audience to not do what I want per se, but to give me a small amount of aid if I want to do it myself?

Have I influenced the audience to not do what I want at all, but to be maybe more sympathetic to a future such request if unspecified circumstances change?

Who decides these things?
 

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