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Wanting players to take in-game religion more seriously
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Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
That's kind of awesome, really.
He's the player who is usually late, still fumbles with d20 basics at times despite playing the game for 15 years now, and has the attention span of a gnat but in some ways hes the player who gets into things the most.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'll be responding in private, out of respect for the mod authority, but here I'll just say that I think you are wildly, absolutely wrong and off base. In spite of that, this is the last of it from me in this thread.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No worries. My point was simply that, including in the case of gods, a being need not be perfect to be venerated or emulated, as a general point. Ie, people have done so for the entirety of known history, including the modern day.
Fairly off topic though. If enworld still allowed threads dedicated to real world religion and politics, I'd suggest a new thread on the topic, but alas, no dice.
I'll post more on the topic of ways to treat religion in a normal dnd world later, after work.
Warrior Poet
Explorer
In addition to some of the engaging theoretical discussion herein, I wanted to offer a practical suggestion, as well. I hope it proves not only useful, but also reinforces some of the sentiments, ideas, and notions that Brad (Bawylie), Imaculata, and others have been invoking in their own contributions.
Part of establishing any cultural component in a role-playing game is not just the underlying mechanics, but the descriptive story elements, as well. Obvious statement, but I bring it up (and I think it fits with Bawylie's previous comment) as a point in establishing credibility.
So, the basic rules in role playing games may give pantheons, and talk about things like domains, and alignments, and so forth, and some games even go further and describe things like favored weapons or clerical vestments or holy days.
But I'd like to suggest that part of building the world in which the religious aspects are credible enough to be taken seriously (for various values of "seriously") is front-loading the world with much more (and I think this follows on what Imaculata has mentioned about D&D pantheons/religions being shallow) than the standard content in most basic rules of rpgs.
And all of this would be better taking place in conversation with the players (a vital component) before classes are even considered.
If a person wants to play a cleric, it might help their approach if they have information beforehand, not just alignment, and portfolio, not even just favored weapon and vestments. Describe particular beliefs. Describe specific rituals for specific days and times of day that clergy get up to, and specific rituals that laity get up to. Describe multiple different interpretations of a single doctrinal point. Describe the religion's history, including the heretical movements that were suppressed, the heretical movements that survive underground, the heretical movements later deemed orthodox, the heretical movements that splintered and formed reformations, the major historical figures in the religion, local historical figures, doctrine not just about theology but about things like economy, social policy, race relations, magic, politics, and more. Describe the religions thoughts on things like agriculture, sex, and labor relations. Describe the ways in which people like the religion. Describe the ways in which people complain about it. Describe the hopes, fears, and indifferences people have to the religions. Describe how much money it has, how much corruption, and how it manages its resources. Describe those components that have affect actual game mechanics, and describe even more that have no mechanical outcome whatsoever. Describe, describe, describe.
None of which is a guarantee that a particular player won't just want the "free heals" and access to church resources and roflcopter the rest, but it might help establish the religion beyond the basics. The rules are only ever likely to impart the basics, and if the basics are seen as nothing more than [CaptainBarbossa] "what you'd call 'guidelines'" [/CaptainBarbossa] they may be harder to regard seriously. If what you have is significant lore that doesn't just infiltrate the understanding of the world, but actually represents a necessary component to grapple with in order to engage with the world, then its easier to take seriously.
But never a guarantee, of course, and as so many have posted, if their heart's not in your interpretation of consideration then there's little you can do other than negotiate in hopes of finding compromise, or at least acknowledgement.
The other drawback to the approach of going really deep in regard to religious content in-game, is the amount of time you would have to invest, at risk of nothing in response. Of course, that's potentially any GM's risk. Which brings us back to the conversations you have with players before the game. Sometimes I feel like the basics of the rpg are there for the quick-and-dirty start, get straight to the action! That's fine, and can be fun, but if what you're hoping to do is build long-term storytelling with engaged play, I think it helps to have conversations about the game and hopes before the dice start clattering across the table. Maybe the players just want the basic and get straight to the action. Maybe it's a mixed group, with amateur thespians like me that want to go some measure to inhabiting characters, and some who just want to hit things and watch the numbers diminish until it's time to loot.
But the religions in game need to feel like they have serious (not the same thing as severe) components if they are to be taken seriously, and I suspect the basic rules outline may not be enough to get the ball rolling, or may be a little harder, at least.
Wow! Who opened my typing spigot to "floodwater"?
Still learning,
Robert
Part of establishing any cultural component in a role-playing game is not just the underlying mechanics, but the descriptive story elements, as well. Obvious statement, but I bring it up (and I think it fits with Bawylie's previous comment) as a point in establishing credibility.
So, the basic rules in role playing games may give pantheons, and talk about things like domains, and alignments, and so forth, and some games even go further and describe things like favored weapons or clerical vestments or holy days.
But I'd like to suggest that part of building the world in which the religious aspects are credible enough to be taken seriously (for various values of "seriously") is front-loading the world with much more (and I think this follows on what Imaculata has mentioned about D&D pantheons/religions being shallow) than the standard content in most basic rules of rpgs.
And all of this would be better taking place in conversation with the players (a vital component) before classes are even considered.
If a person wants to play a cleric, it might help their approach if they have information beforehand, not just alignment, and portfolio, not even just favored weapon and vestments. Describe particular beliefs. Describe specific rituals for specific days and times of day that clergy get up to, and specific rituals that laity get up to. Describe multiple different interpretations of a single doctrinal point. Describe the religion's history, including the heretical movements that were suppressed, the heretical movements that survive underground, the heretical movements later deemed orthodox, the heretical movements that splintered and formed reformations, the major historical figures in the religion, local historical figures, doctrine not just about theology but about things like economy, social policy, race relations, magic, politics, and more. Describe the religions thoughts on things like agriculture, sex, and labor relations. Describe the ways in which people like the religion. Describe the ways in which people complain about it. Describe the hopes, fears, and indifferences people have to the religions. Describe how much money it has, how much corruption, and how it manages its resources. Describe those components that have affect actual game mechanics, and describe even more that have no mechanical outcome whatsoever. Describe, describe, describe.
None of which is a guarantee that a particular player won't just want the "free heals" and access to church resources and roflcopter the rest, but it might help establish the religion beyond the basics. The rules are only ever likely to impart the basics, and if the basics are seen as nothing more than [CaptainBarbossa] "what you'd call 'guidelines'" [/CaptainBarbossa] they may be harder to regard seriously. If what you have is significant lore that doesn't just infiltrate the understanding of the world, but actually represents a necessary component to grapple with in order to engage with the world, then its easier to take seriously.
But never a guarantee, of course, and as so many have posted, if their heart's not in your interpretation of consideration then there's little you can do other than negotiate in hopes of finding compromise, or at least acknowledgement.
The other drawback to the approach of going really deep in regard to religious content in-game, is the amount of time you would have to invest, at risk of nothing in response. Of course, that's potentially any GM's risk. Which brings us back to the conversations you have with players before the game. Sometimes I feel like the basics of the rpg are there for the quick-and-dirty start, get straight to the action! That's fine, and can be fun, but if what you're hoping to do is build long-term storytelling with engaged play, I think it helps to have conversations about the game and hopes before the dice start clattering across the table. Maybe the players just want the basic and get straight to the action. Maybe it's a mixed group, with amateur thespians like me that want to go some measure to inhabiting characters, and some who just want to hit things and watch the numbers diminish until it's time to loot.
But the religions in game need to feel like they have serious (not the same thing as severe) components if they are to be taken seriously, and I suspect the basic rules outline may not be enough to get the ball rolling, or may be a little harder, at least.
Wow! Who opened my typing spigot to "floodwater"?
Still learning,
Robert
Tony Vargas
Legend
Setting aside RL or metaphysical/spiritual 'truth,' the idea that belief creates reality, specifically deities, like that has been explored in fantasy fiction (Tanith Lee & Michael Moorcock) and in RPGs (like M:tA). Untenable thought it might seem, it could work in a D&D setting.
Maybe only positive faith is true, just as you can't prove a negative, you can't have faith in nothing?
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Bawylie
A very OK person
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Yes, they have. Individuals vary of course. But I agree that your point is valid.
As an aside, since we're talking about people in general, I'll note that people are strangely reluctant to admit that these fallible beings whom they worship are in fact flawed or fallible. About the most you can get them to do is a "Yes, but" acknowledgement, as in "Yes, but this other guy is even worse," which is really just an attempt to change the subject. Here's an extreme example of self-worship:
![wrong[1].png](https://www.enworld.org/data/attachments/59/59850-c78fbe01cc39be1eee059bc79714c63c.jpg "wrong[1].png")
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When I read Greek myth I am constantly bemused by the astonishing level of foolishnss displayed by a people who should know better!
"Oh, I'm such a brilliant weaver, me! I'm a much better weaver than Athena, the typically vengeful Greek goddess of weaving!"
"Oh, my daughter is so beautiful! She's even more beautiful than Aphrodite, the not-at-all vain and jealous goddess who's shagging the God Of War on the side!"
What could possibly go wrong?
But these stories were told to Greek children to warn them against that kind of bragging and disrespect.
That is certainly true. On the other hand they are not really respectful stories though more, as you say, cautionary tales of worship them or you will get turned into a Medusa.
The problem is that when they turn up they usually end up acting exactly like Athena in your story and then some mortal hero comes to kick their ass so it is hardly the cautionary tale you would expect.
When you have dozens of Gods then most NPCs probably dont care enough about a single one to make it worth their while to do anything. Most likely people that only worship one God (like Clerics) are the oddity in a society that has multiple Gods.
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