D&D 5E Warlock group think

Ovarwa said:

but the major selling point is using Cha with a weapon, a benefit that is hard to get elsewhere

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It really isn't.

Read the patron again and don't think about Blade Pact. Cha to hit/dmg with a weapon is the weakest part of it.

yakuba said:

IME with warlocks, when a out of combat spell is useful, getting a short rest after using is not a problem. There's no mechanic, it's just the typical pacing of D&D. Of course a DM could absolutely change that pacing, but I just haven't seen that.

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If your game doesn't care about rest mechanics then there really isn't much to talk about.

Sleep (at low levels) and Faerie fire produce more damage than Hexblade's curse and in a more front loaded manner. Sleep in particular removes a good number of enemy actions from the fight right at the start.

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Sleep and Faerie Fire require both an action and a spell slot.

Seriously. Look back at what you just typed. You are arguing that Sleep is stronger than Curse and leaving out that one is an Action the other is a Bonus Action, and 1 requires a spell slot and the other doesn't.

mellored said:

Honestly, I think if EB and agonizing blast were given as a feature, rather then a "choice", people would be happier about it.

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I think so too. And hex too.

ad_hoc said:

It really isn't. Read the patron again and don't think about Blade Pact. Cha to hit/dmg with a weapon is the weakest part of it.

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Oh. Well that certainly settles it.

ad_hoc said:

If your game doesn't care about rest mechanics then there really isn't much to talk about.



Sleep and Faerie Fire require both an action and a spell slot.

Seriously. Look back at what you just typed. You are arguing that Sleep is stronger than Curse and leaving out that one is an Action the other is a Bonus Action, and 1 requires a spell slot and the other doesn't.

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OK, the hexblade uses a bonus action for curse. What's the action for then. An attack that does an average of 9hp? Wow!

vs incapacitating multiple targets with sleep. But the hex blade saved a slot, because incapacitating multiple enemies isn't worth using a slot, apparently. What incredibly fantastic use does the hex blade have for the slot that's better than incapacitating multiple enemies.

If incapcitating multiple enemies isn't a worthwhile use of a slot in your game, there really isn't much to talk about.

Ovarwa said:

Oh. Well that certainly settles it.

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I *think* the argument/concern is that the hexblade can be use to build a hexblade *that doesn't fight in melee* and instead still uses EB as his main damaging tool - while well protected with armor and shield. He can also curse a target and gain most of the benefits while blasting it with EB.

The intent of the hexblade is clearly for him to fight with his blade, but he does just as well, or even better, if he *doesn't*. That's the problem.


If I was to make a hexblade, I would take EB but not invest anything in it (not even Agonizing Blast), as my "what to do when not in range" option, and focus on melee. But this would be done for roleplaying reasons (respect the "fluff" of the patron), not for optimizing one.

Caliban said:

Overall it works pretty well, but it requires you to play a lot of attention and micromanage your abilities for best effect. For my preferred build, the idea is to get out there and absorb damage. Dealing damage is a lower priority - you are there to block the way to your main damage dealers and not die.

I've played 5 or 6 "tank role" characters with various levels of warlock over the last three years. It's hard to get away from that first level of Fighter for Heavy Armor proficiency, Con save proficiency, Fighting Style, and Second Wind.

Most of them have been Fighter 1/Warlock X (Fiend patron/Blade Pact), with a high Str/Con and only a 14 Charisma. Use Armor of Agathys combined with Blade Ward and Heavy Armor Master at low levels to preserve the Temp HP of the Armor of Agathys as long as possible. By the time those run out you are hopefully able to reduce something to 0 HP and gain more Temp HP. Eventually pick up Great Weapon Master so that you do enough damage that you can't be ignored. Only a few spells are devoted to damage, most are utility/defense - Hex, Misty Step, Darkness, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Fly, Dimension Door, and eventually Wall of Fire (with Repelling Blast instead of Agonizing Blast so you can knock enemies into the wall). I do take Eldritch Blast, but it is mainly for when they can't get into melee with their opponent (kind of a magical replacement for Javelins).

I prefer Blade Pact for flavor reasons (and the second attack), but it can work just as well with other pacts, especially if you go Fighter or Paladin 5 for the second attack.

But one caveat - most of the games I've played these characters in haven't gone past level 10. My highest level one is an Adventure League character who is Fighter 8(Eldritch Knight)/Warlock 7 (Fiend/Pact of Chain) with a Legendary Greatsword and Belt of Fire Giant Str.

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Thanks for the info ! Great to hear your experiences, sounds like a lot of fun to me

ad_hoc said:

One thing I do like about XGtE are the non-pact invocations.

I like the new precedent of having the 1/long rest invocations not using a spell slot. If we apply that to the old ones it opens up a lot more choices.

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I was thinking the same thing until I noticed that there seems to be a trend that the spells that require a spell slot are the ones that actually scale with level, while the ones that don't don't. I haven't verified that that is true in all cases, but if it is it would explain the logic behind it. Still not sure I like 1/day invocations that also use up a spell slot, but at least there is some benefit.

Warpiglet said:

The eldritch blast really does not become overwhelming until you get three blasts. Even then, you are getting ready to see lifedrinker. The math is really not there to back up EB's supposed overwhelming superiority. It is better at range but in our games, a group of four cannot make sure all characters are melee free at a distance. Disadvantage makes EB less superior even before comparable damage from melee weapons comes into play.

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Since I've been doing math today, I accept the challenge! It would probably help a lot of people actually see the numbers here anyway, so I'll do my best.

[NOTE: There is an error on the 5th level Bladelock row. The values should be the same as the 6th level row.



(Note that you will not be able to get both hex and Hexblade’s Curse activated on a new target at once until 14th level. Also, Hexblade’s Curse is once per short rest, so it can’t be assumed as ubiquitously as hex can. However, since I’m comparing the same feature on eldritch blast and a weapon, you can still use these numbers to see how much more eldritch blast benefits from it.)

I'm comparing a warlock (any patron, any boon) who uses eldritch blast plus Agonizing Blast, and hex with three other warlocks: a Hexblade who uses the same attacks (ie, eldritch blast), a Pact of the Blade warlock who is not a Hexblade, and a Pact of the Blade warlock who is.

As should be evident by the numbers, an eldritch blast wielding warlock benefits from, well, pretty much everything, more than a weapon wielding one does. It's the fact that they get multiple attacks with eldritch blast rather than just scaling damage dice as with other cantrips, and then benefit from features (hex, Agonizing Blast, and Hexblade's Curse) that apply to each attack that causes all the problems for weapon wielders, because they don't get that third and fourth attack that eldritch blast does.

Now, aside from a blip at 5th level, you'll see that weapon wielders actually do better than eldritch blast wielders before level 11. So what's all the complaining about if it's just a little bit of high level imbalance, one might ask? Well, first, it's not a little bit, it's a lot of high level imbalance. Look at those level 17+ numbers for a Blaster who took the Hexblade pact just to buff his eldritch blast, compared to the Pact of the Blade dedicated weapon wielding Hexblade. 80 damage versus 53? 66 versus 46? I mean, that's crazy.

Second, look at the difference in investment required. Hexblade patron replaces the Strength investment, which is great; no denying that. But you still have pair that specific pact with a specific patron and two invocations, whereas the eldritch blaster can be any pact or patron they want, and only needs to take Agonizing Blast and eldritch blast(and I expect most weapon wielding warlocks will snag eldritch blast too because it is an excellent ranged option for minimal investment (especially since they already have hex).

But of course, that all only applies if the eldritch blaster decides to take Hexblade, right? Wrong. The highest numbers only kick in then, but look at the comparison between a standard eldritch blaster and a dedicated greatsword Hexblade. Finally, they can more or less keep up! ... well, as long as they have their Curse up on an opponent that is. Otherwise they are just using the same columns as the non Hexblade Bladelock is.

By the way, did you notice that the Hexblade's backup eldritch blast (without any Agonizing Blast nonsense) still does 60 damage compared to 53 from his weapon? Well, at least you can probably get a magic weapon.

In case anyone was wondering about the expanded crit range, it only adds 1 (or 2 at high levels for your Eldritch Blaster who took Hexblade patron--must he steal all our fun?) additional points of damage beyond what a normal crit would. It is fun though.

It's just straight up problematic design.

Before anyone says "it's not all about damage" (though it's unlikely someone has read this far if that's something they are thinking of saying), the point isn't about whether you should care about damage or not. The point is that if you do care about damage, the rules ought to mechanically work the way the fluff implies to let you actually do as well with your weapon as not, instead of requiring you to sell your arm and your leg along with your soul for mediocre results.

There are house rules that can make it tolerable, though they never make it "right." Making Hexblade's Curse only add to damage and crit range on attacks with a weapon eliminates that entire crazy "Hexblast Fun" box in chart. As long as you don't care about the super investment required, that's enough to work. If you'd like Bladelocks that aren't Hexblades to have a chance to keep up with eldritch blasters, a house rule I use is to add in the effect of an Eldritch Knights War Magic to the Thirsting Blade invocation. That extra damage can help them keep up, and they can stick with a Dex weapon so they don't destroy their AC as a lightly armored Str+Cha character. Other, less minimalist fixes might include taking away some of the features of Hexblade and sticking them into the Pact of the Blade instead.

So it looks like the main issue is EB at 17+ level. Until that point, the blade seems to keep up (or even exceed) EB's damage. Its that last added attack that finishes the job.

So perhaps you could just remove the added attack at 17th level.

Stalker0 said:

So it looks like the main issue is EB at 17+ level. Until that point, the blade seems to keep up (or even exceed) EB's damage. Its that last added attack that finishes the job.

So perhaps you could just remove the added attack at 17th level.

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Honestly, how much does it really matter to most people? Over the last 25 years and playing with four different editions I've been in exactly one campaign that got to 17th level and above. The math getting a little wonky that high up is unlikely to ever impact me.

Also, I have reservations about that analysis. It doesn't bring up the option of taking Eldritch Smite and unloading on a crit for an extra 12d8 damage. It doesn't weigh the impact of a +3 Rod of the Pact Keeper vs a +3 Melee Weapon, to say nothing of some of the obscenely powerful plot weapons and artifacts that often turn up in games. Seriously, one of the major benefits of a Blade build is that you can use a magic weapon.

And besides all that, damage output is best done as a comparison to your peers, not a race to the theoretical top. If the whole table is picking non-optimal builds then using a theorycrafted optimized spec just starts an arms races with the DM that leaves the other players overshadowed. Hexblade Bladelock is stylish as hell, and the one I'm playing performs more than adequately for my table.