D&D 5E Warlock group think

[ad_hoc]

Seeming, calm emotions, dominate person, detect thoughts, clairvoyance and sending are all very useful out of combat. And although it's high level, so less relevant, create thrall is very powerful.

Even in combat I still prefer the fey pact as, IMO, sleep (at very low levels), faerie fire and improved invisibility compare favorably to Charisma for melee attacks and medium armor and "improved favored enemy" once per short rest.

Those spells all require spell slots. The Warlock has out of combat spells on their list already. It's nice to have more spells to choose from, but saving the spell slots because of great additional combat ability from the Patron frees up those slots.

Preferring sleep, faerie fire, and improved invisibility over Hexblade's Curse and +5 AC is ridiculous.

Most campaigns will never get to 14th level and if they do they won't spend much time there. Heck, Hexblade has a much better chance to survive to 14th level than the other Warlocks.

 

[mellored]

IThe curse or the armour alone is worth more than any other patron's ability (short of high level which most campaigns won't get to and if they do won't spend much time in).

I don't see it as better than fiends.

+4 AC, and once per short rest you get +8 damage and 10 HP.
vs
+10 THP every time you kill something. Or about +40 THP per short rest.

Unless your taking a lot of attacks, the THP will win out over the armor.

The 6th level Hexblade ability is also very good.

True.
Though keep in mind, specters can't talk, might be able to understand you, and you might not find humanoids in all campaigns. And even with the bonus THP and to-hit, they won't survive long in combat.


I'm not saying that hexblade is bad (sun soul is bad). But not better than what we already have. Like fiend + repelling blast + firewall.
Close, but not better.

 

[ad_hoc]

I don't see it as better than fiends.

+4 AC, and once per short rest you get +8 damage and 10 HP.
vs
+10 THP every time you kill something. Or about +40 THP per short rest.

Unless your taking a lot of attacks, the THP will win out over the armor.

This is a mook vs big creature sort of thing and it is +5 AC with half plate. That AC will do more than the THP will ever do. Monsters tend to do big damage in 5e.

Don't forget the increased crit range either.

The Fiend's 1st level ability is the strongest of the lot, but remember that the THP won't stack so they actually want to take a lot of attacks if they are picking off mooks for it to be effective.

THP on creature kill is worth an invocation (about as good as at will False Life only it scales so it keeps being decent)

Either Curse or Medium Armour/Shields would be powerful Invocations. It puts at will Mage Armour to shame (though that is a lousy invocation anyway of course)

Telepathy would be one of those invocations that might be taken for some utility/flavour but not often. I think I would rather have 2 skill proficiencies or at will Disguise Self.

Charm/Frighten 1/round for an action probably wouldn't even be taken as an Invocation at all.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I think the primary disconnect here is undervaluing the non-EB invocations and overvaluing the role of cantrips in battle.

No, the primary disconnect is that you're arguing against a proposition that's obvious to anyone with eyes to see: Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip in the game, and a bunch of Invocations make it (and only it) even better. Which means your choices as a Warlock are (1) Eldritch Blast, or (2) a cantrip that isn't as good as Eldritch Blast.

The fact is, Warlocks are tied to Eldritch Blast in a way that no other class is tied to any one choice of weapon or cantrip (even Monks can use monk weapons as an alternative to their fists). This isn't a debatable point. The only question is whether you think it's fine or an unfortunately straightjacket (I'm in the latter camp).

Some people argue (correctly!) that Eldritch Blast is a solution to the Warlock's limited number of spell slots. It gives them something to do when they don't want to use of their precious slots. And as solutions go, it's an effective one. But it's also a single solution there's no equally effective alternative to (just less effective alternatives), whereas my suggested rules are generic solutions that would make Warlocks better with any cantrip.

Also, the easiest way to have a Warlock not rely on Eldritch Blast if those cantrips above aren't enough for you is to take the Tome Pact and take cantrips with good riders likely to help out the party more than just a point of damage or two.

I do have Tome Pact! It doesn't make other cantrips any better than Eldritch Blast. Choosing Fire Bolt for one of my three extra Cantrips when I already have Eldritch Blast would be stupid. I took Guidance, Mage Hand, and Thorn Whip (the last one so I have something to do in melee if I'm forced to).

 

[mellored]

This is a mook vs big creature sort of thing and it is +5 AC with half plate. That AC will do more than the THP will ever do. Monsters tend to do big damage in 5e.

5 attacks for 1d6 is the same average damage as 1 attack for 5d6. Both in terms of AC and THP.

But let's say a level 5 warlock, with 18 Cha, 14 Con, 14 Dex, and 36 HP. (Though you can get 16 Dex/Con with a half-elf).
Attack by a CR 5 wearbear, with +7 to-hit, 13 damage, 2 attacks. (attacks favor armor, so i'll only count 3 kills per short rest)

Hex = 19 AC, 40% chance to be hit * 13 damage *2 attacks = 10.4 damage per round.
36+9 heal *3 rests = 63 effective HP
63 / 10.4 = 6.06 rouds until dead

Fiend = 14 AC, 65% chance to be hit * 13 damage *2 attacks = 16.9 damage per round.
36+9 THP*3 kills * 3 rests = 117 effective HP
117 / 16.9 = 6.92 rounds until dead

Fiend survives 15% longer. At the cost of some damage.
Call it a tie.

Don't forget the increased crit range either.

0.05 * 5.5 = +0.275 damage per ray. About half a point of damage with advantage.
It's pretty forgettable.

The Fiend's 1st level ability is the strongest of the lot, but remember that the THP won't stack so they actually want to take a lot of attacks if they are picking off mooks for it to be effective.

A good thing to do with multi-ray eldrich blast, avoiding overkill. Or with a fireball.

But yea, hex wins if your DM likes single big monsters. Both in terms of damage, and the lack of minions for fiend to feed off of.

THP on creature kill is worth an invocation (about as good as at will False Life only it scales so it keeps being decent)[/qoute]False life takes an action. Fiend can recharges mid-combat.
But you can calculate again. Hex with false life, and fiend with mage armor.

Telepathy would be one of those invocations that might be taken for some utility/flavour but not often. I think I would rather have 2 skill proficiencies or at will Disguise Self.

Charm/Frighten 1/round for an action probably wouldn't even be taken as an Invocation at all.

Agreed. Hex beats fey and goo for dungeon crawl games.

Again, hex is A top sub-class. It's just not THE top sub-class. It ties on features, but loses on spells.

 

[mellored]

No, the primary disconnect is that you're arguing against a proposition that's obvious to anyone with eyes to see: Eldritch Blast is the best cantrip in the game, and a bunch of Invocations make it (and only it) even better. Which means your choices as a Warlock are (1) Eldritch Blast, or (2) a cantrip that isn't as good as Eldritch Blast.

His point was about non-combat options.

You can start the game with devils sight and mask of many faces for instance. Sneak into a orc camp, tell some lies, and walk out with the prisoner without firing a single shot.
Or use mage hand to avoid triggering a trap.

You want agonizing blast at some point, but by then you'll have other options.

The fact is, Warlocks are tied to Eldritch Blast in a way that no other class is tied to any one choice of weapon or cantrip (even Monks can use monk weapons as an alternative to their fists). This isn't a debatable point. The only question is whether you think it's fine or an unfortunately straightjacket (I'm in the latter camp). [/quote]Monks weapons all do the same damage. So it's only an aesthetic choice. No different from chosing to have red or green eldrich blasts.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

EB is only great because of the invocations that enhance it. Otherwise, its damage is similar to FB. It does have a superior damage type.

The importance of EB to the 5e Warlock is a design feature, inherited from the 3e Warlock. Not a flaw. Not a bug. If anything, the 5e Warlock ought to have been designed with *more* ways to pimp EB, maybe with each Pact and Patron automatically providing a unique benefit. Not complaining though.

Most other damaging cantrips are simply not as good for a Warlock, so subclass features that offer or depend on these will probably be subpar, since they will at best catch up. That kind of subclass can still be excellent, but it will be for other reasons.

Getting medium armor and shields from Hexblade is nice, as are other various features, but the major selling point is using Cha with a weapon, a benefit that is hard to get elsewhere (yes, Shillelagh with Tome works, but that consumes your first bonus action every combat, which could have been used for something else, like targeting a Hex or using PAM). Going from MAD to SAD frees up ASIs for Feats, which a weapon user really needs. But once you *have* committed to weapon use and a high Cha, all the Hexblade features really come together, for either a single or multiclass character.

Apologies if I'm saying things that are obvious, but here we are.

As for the quality of the Warlock class, I don't think it's either underpowered or overpowered, not especially 'good' or 'bad' compared to other classes. It works and is interesting. For me, the only gotcha is that a player who expects a Warlock to act like a real full-caster will likely be disappointed, because its spell list and casting mechanic are inferior.

Anyway,

Ken

 

[mellored]

Honestly, I think if EB and agonizing blast were given as a feature, rather then a "choice", people would be happier about it.

 

[yakuba]

Those spells all require spell slots. The Warlock has out of combat spells on their list already. It's nice to have more spells to choose from, but saving the spell slots because of great additional combat ability from the Patron frees up those slots.

Preferring sleep, faerie fire, and improved invisibility over Hexblade's Curse and +5 AC is ridiculous.

Most campaigns will never get to 14th level and if they do they won't spend much time there. Heck, Hexblade has a much better chance to survive to 14th level than the other Warlocks.

IME with warlocks, when a out of combat spell is useful, getting a short rest after using is not a problem. There's no mechanic, it's just the typical pacing of D&D. Of course a DM could absolutely change that pacing, but I just haven't seen that.

Sleep (at low levels) and Faerie fire produce more damage than Hexblade's curse and in a more front loaded manner. Sleep in particular removes a good number of enemy actions from the fight right at the start.

 

[ad_hoc]

Fiend survives 15% longer. At the cost of some damage.
Call it a tie.

That is some extra special math there and a lot of mental gymnastics.