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D&D General Hey, are we all cool with having to buy the same book twice, or what?

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm not really... just saying in the rare circumstances where I need my book and don't have my copy with me, I can search up the PDF fairly easily.

If you do this and don't own a copy, you're skum.
There's something kinda off about equating really mild examples of "theft" to scum.

Reminds me quite strongly of the psychopaths in my retail store who talk aout how they wish they could shoot shoplifters.

Just kina squicks me out.
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
My guess? All these companies that give you the pdf when you buy the book aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts... they're doing it to help inspire people to take a chance on their stuff and hopefully make a sale they otherwise wouldn't have gotten. :)

I'm not really sure I agree with that thought process. I think a number of them really are doing it because they recognize that their customers are doing more digitally as well as using pen and paper and they are interested in meeting both needs without sending people to the torrent servers.

I don't think it's explicitly to get customers to take a chance so much as increase the utility to price ratio and increase their overall competitive edge with savvy consumers. I recognize that may be a bit of a subtle distinction but I don't really think seeking a competitive advantage is necessarily the same as getting people to take a chance on them they wouldn't otherwise take.
 

Oofta

Legend
There was an interview a long time ago about providing PDFs (maybe back in 4E days?) that discussed the issues with providing PDFs.

Basically there is no good way. Include a code with the book? There's nothing stopping people from going to the store, opening up a book and using it. Then the person who does buy the book doesn't get the PDF.

An insert with a CD or DVD? That's actually kind of a big expense and how many people could actually use it?

Direct sales? Well, that works for smaller companies, not so much for WOTC. They aren't in the direct sales business. Go to their web site - they redirect you to other vendors.

Sell them separately? Wouldn't solve the issue and that's what vendors are for. If there were a market for it that was profitable I think some vendor somewhere would have jumped on it by now. But it's not profitable so they haven't.
 

darjr

I crit!
Bits and motor has been great but it is a pain too. I’ve only ever done it with Cubicle 7 with The One Ring and Adventures in Middle Earth and the Dr Who rpg.

I eventually had to find a person to contact and send them an email with a photo of my receipts. They then manually arranged things so I had the PDF. I can’t help but think it was a pain for them too.
 

Also a factor in the whole "why do we have to buy the book twice?!" complaint, who didn't hesitate to buy the PHB as second time because it had a fancy cover?

Photo 2020-05-08, 1 24 03 PM.jpg


Shouldn't this be even more outrageous and cause even more threads, as it's the exact same thing and doesn't give you access on a different platform or medium.

Are we not INCENSED that they required us to get the fancy covers separately because they released after we had the books.
Shouldn't we have been able to trade in our old PHBs for the alternate covers?
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
There was an interview a long time ago about providing PDFs (maybe back in 4E days?) that discussed the issues with providing PDFs.

Basically there is no good way. Include a code with the book? There's nothing stopping people from going to the store, opening up a book and using it. Then the person who does buy the book doesn't get the PDF.

An insert with a CD or DVD? That's actually kind of a big expense and how many people could actually use it?

Direct sales? Well, that works for smaller companies, not so much for WOTC. They aren't in the direct sales business. Go to their web site - they redirect you to other vendors.

Sell them separately? Wouldn't solve the issue and that's what vendors are for. If there were a market for it that was profitable I think some vendor somewhere would have jumped on it by now. But it's not profitable so they haven't.

As I stated before, Torg:Eternity does it, as do lots of vendors, so its entirely possible.

1. Online vendors pay for physical product. Online vendors are given a list of one-use codes to d/l a watermarked PDF. Online vendor emails one of the codes along with the physical product upon purchase.

2. FLGS pay for physical product. FLGS is given a set of one-use codes to give out when the book is purchased to d/l a watermarked PDF. FLGS hands you a card with a code in addition to the physical book.

I'm not saying that WoTC should or shouldn't do it, but its inaccurate to say that selling controlled access to PDFs along with a physical print book can't be done.
 

Third, if you really want examples of WOTC's tract record, the entire digital line of WOTC since 4 edition was lackluster at best.
Mistwell has been hanging around ENWorld since 2002. I guarantee he knows this stuff as well as you.

The failed attempt at creating the project that was supposed to be known as Dungeonscape (codnamed Project Morningstar: Wizards of the Coast fumbles the digital ball. Again.) was a complete and utter disaster; since you seem to be unable to infer the basic implications of how businesses work together and coordinate projects, I shall illuminate it: while the project was outsourced to Trapdoor studios, WOTC were the ones who okay'd the project, paid for it, gave them extra time (multiple years) despite no signs of progress AND chose a studio with ZERO history at developing software in the first place. It cost Hasbro a lot of money with nothing to show for it.
Funny thing... right after that Trapdoor went and partnered with Paizo.
This really implies the guys at Trapdoor really know how to make a pitch and sell people. Conmen who over-promise and sound really good but fail to deliver.

Yeah, it's annoying that WotC partnered with an unknown. But this would have been 2013 when gaming was dying and D&D was on life support. No established and well known gaming company would touch them. They had to go for start-ups and hope the ambition and drive of the people they work with pays off. It's a gamble. Sometimes, like Dungeonscape, it doesn't. In other cases (DnD Beyond, Beadle & Grimm) it very much does.

Before THAT was a failed social media project called Gleemax where Wizards was trying for nearly 18 months to create a one-stop MTG related site that also failed due to more management of the project and lack of clear goals or guidelines. It also did not help that it after launch did not gain much traction with the fans due to not living up to the expectations Wizards promised. (Gleemax, and Wizards of the Coast Declares Gleemax Site a Critical Failure - Slashdot).
Yeah, which is why they partnered with other companies, like Trapdoor, rather than trying to make it in-house. You know, that company you lambasted them for working with a couple paragraphs ago.

Because, unsurprisingly, a company staffed entirely by people who know how to make, design, and publish card, board, and roleplaying games isn't that good at coding a digital product.
You can't always hire a bunch of coders, throw money at a department, and make a good digital product.

Are you seeing the pattern here? WOTC has a history of announcing or mismanaging numerous products, or at best a record of poor decision making on whom to outsource their products to.
Yes. And?
Are you implying this means DnD Beyond is automatically bad? Patterns like the above can be broken. There's no associated link. (Correlation doesn't equal something something...)

Okay, this would be a reason to be worried about the health and final product of DnDbeyond... when it launched in March 2017. And there were concerns then...
But it's been three years and is mostly feature complete, and they're continuing to improve and all even more functionality and features. At this point DnD Beyond is a pretty amazing tool.

And this isn't even touching on their history of actively engaging in numerous cease and desist orders towards quite a few different websites over the past few decades. Are they legally entitled to do so? Yes. Is it good PR to be so zealousness about it? Unclear. Contrast that with other companies like Paizo or Chaosium whom not only provide fully fleshed out digital options (i.e. pdfs) with the latter half literally giving their full ruleset away FOR FREE, but whom also encourage their content being handled digitally.
Jesus wept. Is it 2008 again?
I can't recall the last time I head the "WotC is bad because it C&Ds people."

Guess what: Paizo sends out C&Ds as well. They send out DMCA takedown requests. They email and tell the owners of websites to pull content being hosted illegally. Paizo is also VERY aggressive at perusing and preventing illegal sharing of PDFs imbedding tracking javascripts and all kinds of code and hidden watermarks into their PDFs which can potentially compromise your system and provide a back door into your computer. Where's your outrage in that?

Getting to your other point, does Paizo sell PDFs? Yes. But you still had to pay for them.
And when you looked at the digital character manager (HeroLabs) you had to pay again, at a much, much higher price than the PDFs.
And you had to buy the entire content of a book even if you wanted a single class or feat. And there was no ability to share content with other people. Even installing HeroLabs on a second computer wasn't possible. Unlike DnDBeyond where the DM can buy individual spells and share content with their players.


Look, if you hate corporations and corporate products than you're hanging around the WRONG subforum. This one is dedicated solely to the corporate created and published RPG Dungeons & Dragons, which has been wholly owned by Hasbro—the world's biggest toy company—for twenty years.
I'm sure you'll be happier hanging around one of ENWorld's other fine forums that discuss smaller RPGs made by non-corporate bodies. There's many, many excellent games by smaller publishers that you can talk about.
 

seebs

Adventurer
Sell them separately? Wouldn't solve the issue and that's what vendors are for. If there were a market for it that was profitable I think some vendor somewhere would have jumped on it by now. But it's not profitable so they haven't.

This is an interesting line of argument, but as is so often the case with WotC and PDFs, there are many explanations offered over time, and they contradict each other.

There's no evidence on offer that WotC would permit a vendor to sell PDFs. If they aren't willing to license the books as PDFs to some vendor, then no, no one would have jumped on it, because they wouldn't be allowed to. It seems pretty obvious that it would be trivially profitable, because the expenses of shipping a PDF are roughly $0, so it'd just be licensing, and whatever the licensing is, any price up to the price of the hardcover, there's probably at least someone who'd be willing to pay it.

It's true that WotC isn't in the direct sales business, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be if they wanted to. And they don't, but it's not obvious that this is exclusively because of the model; it could be because they don't want to sell PDFs, specifically.

I've also seen claims, from multiple companies, that bookstores used to refuse to carry books if the company also made them available as ebooks or PDFs. That obviously hasn't been true for a while, but it's what Steve Jackson Games said when asked about GURPS PDFs back in the day.

Given that Drive Thru RPG does in fact sell PDFs of many WotC products that aren't 5th edition, I think the most plausible interpretation is that, for reasons Not Specified, Wizards is unwilling to license the 5th edition books to be sold as PDFs at this time. My guess would be that they want the hardcover sales and the corresponding visibility of their sales rank on Amazon, etcetera, and/or they're Very Worried About Piracy.
 

Oofta

Legend
This is an interesting line of argument, but as is so often the case with WotC and PDFs, there are many explanations offered over time, and they contradict each other.

There's no evidence on offer that WotC would permit a vendor to sell PDFs. If they aren't willing to license the books as PDFs to some vendor, then no, no one would have jumped on it, because they wouldn't be allowed to. It seems pretty obvious that it would be trivially profitable, because the expenses of shipping a PDF are roughly $0, so it'd just be licensing, and whatever the licensing is, any price up to the price of the hardcover, there's probably at least someone who'd be willing to pay it.

It's true that WotC isn't in the direct sales business, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be if they wanted to. And they don't, but it's not obvious that this is exclusively because of the model; it could be because they don't want to sell PDFs, specifically.

I've also seen claims, from multiple companies, that bookstores used to refuse to carry books if the company also made them available as ebooks or PDFs. That obviously hasn't been true for a while, but it's what Steve Jackson Games said when asked about GURPS PDFs back in the day.

Given that Drive Thru RPG does in fact sell PDFs of many WotC products that aren't 5th edition, I think the most plausible interpretation is that, for reasons Not Specified, Wizards is unwilling to license the 5th edition books to be sold as PDFs at this time. My guess would be that they want the hardcover sales and the corresponding visibility of their sales rank on Amazon, etcetera, and/or they're Very Worried About Piracy.

There might be something to the publication numbers theory, but we have no way of really knowing. Maybe they have a deal with Amazon or they're doing it to try to support local game stores who sell their product. Probably a combination. After all, it's not like they don't license out their product, DndBeyond, HeroLabs, Roll20 have agreements.

I just think it's a tremendous jump to go from "WOTC won't give me a PDF with my book" to "HASBRO IS EVIL INCARNATE for not giving me a PDF with my book." Nobody is forcing anyone to pay for books multiple times.
 

I just think it's a tremendous jump to go from "WOTC won't give me a PDF with my book" to "HASBRO IS EVIL INCARNATE for not giving me a PDF with my book."
Nobody is forcing anyone to pay for books multiple times.
It's also a moot point, and has been for four years and eight months, since the time to find a way to give free PDFs with purchase was August 2014. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't help the people who already purchased the PHB.

So if they introduce PDFs now, it's another $20-$40 expense and we still get people bitching about being "forced" to pay twice, and anyone who bought DnDBeyond for digital access will be upset at having to pay a third time.
 

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