Aldarc
Legend
You are playing apologetics for toxic experiences and behavior that was directed at me here in the past. I would personally appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so in the future.
What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)
Wolfpack48
Adventurer
Yeah, we (and I) need to tone that down on both sides so we can have a reasonable conversation.
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While deeply uncharitable, I don't think its entirely out of pocket when some people say that things like PBTA basically aren't games. For a lot of the people, the G in RPG matters, and from a mechanical standpoint, PBTA type games do not have very robust or compelling gameplay to engage with beyond the improv game, which all RP games have to begin with. The feedback loops are weak to non-existent and they're near universally puddle-deep unless they're willing to break from the no-effort simplicity that, IMO, explains more of why the games are popular with some gamers than anything to do with how they handle storytelling.
Yet another reason why Ironsworn is the sole one of the bunch I full throatedly endorse because I can just play it for the gameplay and its fun, and the mechanics it has are deep enough to chew on.
My conclusion has been that we are not, fundamentally, doing the same thing but we talk about it like we are.
The conflict that emerges nearly always seems to be because everyone in a given discussion places some conception of what an RPG is as an immutable constant outside the bounds of discussion, and those constants are routinely in tension, and/or treated as variables by the other parties.
The conflict that emerges nearly always seems to be because everyone in a given discussion places some conception of what an RPG is as an immutable constant outside the bounds of discussion, and those constants are routinely in tension, and/or treated as variables by the other parties.
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Neonchameleon
Legend
Funny how I've never heard anyone call e.g. Risus, Fudge, or even Lasers and Feelings "not games" when the gameplay there is far less robust or compelling.
Neonchameleon
Legend
In the most respectful way possible "this is not an RPG" is always and without exception incredibly toxic to discussion. It is a pure and distilled form of a badwrongfun argument, calling a game badwrongfun not for any suggested actual badness but because it doesn't fit within arbitrary lines that one individual or group is trying to impose on the entire hobby.
And the two different tables I'm running are doing different things - but both are RPGs and if I need to differentiate them I give their subtypes of RPG different names.
Uhh... I have found it unhelpful to use the phrase "not a game" in a TTRPG context online, certainly, but if I were to apply the same tests I use on boardgames, where that is not a deadly insult and instead a pretty normative part of criticism with a specific connotation about the impact, depth and variability of decision making....I would describe those as "not really games" or as "not very good games" depending.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I've had a conversation about a variant of Lasers & Feelings in person with a friend where that precise phrase came up. It's just that it's clear that "game" is being used very differently in the context of a discussion here, and I can see it's both rude and not conducive to deploy it that way.
Aldarc
Legend
You are talking past me. You are continuing to defend toxic behavior. You are making assumptions about what was said to me and what was being argued when you weren't there. So barring an apology, the two of us done here, Pedantic.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black.
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