What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)

zakael19

Explorer
Even if you go through that process (or even the less effective sentence on a sheet), there comes a point at which that character actually has to play out having your back. The process by which you get there is great, but it must at some point become real in session. Roleplaying the source of the motivation out always will reinforce that source (process or sentence) in play.

I think you’re confusing starting condition for future narrative building vs. in moment events. There’s no need to RP out character building blocks, you do it mutually and establish the fiction. It’s now actionable - you can press the other character from that, the DM can try and wedge it, etc. there’s a building block for future IC interaction that you grow from that you defined together.

If you saved me before, will you do so again? What if my own bad decisions got me here? What if you have a competing priority? Those are interesting moments that arise from strong collaborative character building that asks hard questions about relationships and drives.
 

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Wolfpack48

Adventurer
I think you’re confusing starting condition for future narrative building vs. in moment events. There’s no need to RP out character building blocks, you do it mutually and establish the fiction. It’s now actionable - you can press the other character from that, the DM can try and wedge it, etc. there’s a building block for future IC interaction that you grow from that you defined together.

If you saved me before, will you do so again? What if my own bad decisions got me here? What if you have a competing priority? Those are interesting moments that arise from strong collaborative character building that asks hard questions about relationships and drives.
I believe Crimson was saying some RPing out of that beginning process doesn't hurt and can even help with forming those initial bonds. I'm in agreement with him, although I wouldn't say it's expected or mandatory.
 

zakael19

Explorer
I've never seen people pause and RP out involved pre-starting-premise character connections. Does that happen? I thought you just generally showed up to a session 0 with some background ideas (or nothing or 4 pages of short story depending on the person), and you do you some back and forth depending on how the DM is running things and then you get the Opening scene then or next session?

My take on @Crimson Longinus was that he was saying meta-game style character development isn't nearly as real or interesting as in-moment IC stuff, writ large across the game.
 

Pedantic

Legend
I've never seen people pause and RP out involved pre-starting-premise character connections. Does that happen? I thought you just generally showed up to a session 0 with some background ideas (or nothing or 4 pages of short story depending on the person), and you do you some back and forth depending on how the DM is running things and then you get the Opening scene then or next session?

My take on @Crimson Longinus was that he was saying meta-game style character development isn't nearly as real or interesting as in-moment IC stuff, writ large across the game.
I think it's more a question of frequency. Character development feels devalued if it's too much of the field of play. Demonstrating these things has value separate from establishing or testing them.
 

Wolfpack48

Adventurer
I've never seen people pause and RP out involved pre-starting-premise character connections. Does that happen? I thought you just generally showed up to a session 0 with some background ideas (or nothing or 4 pages of short story depending on the person), and you do you some back and forth depending on how the DM is running things and then you get the Opening scene then or next session?

My take on @Crimson Longinus was that he was saying meta-game style character development isn't nearly as real or interesting as in-moment IC stuff, writ large across the game.
For our last RQ campaign we RPd out character origins before beginning the actual campaign. We also determined a number of Passions and relationships for each character that arose out of session 0.
 

When I say "your friend concedes them authority over the ending of their book" I mean chooses to imagine what the author invites them to imagine. I should have made that clearer as you have both understood that concession as letting the author write what they want, while imagining something else. I'm not sure how you got there, but that wasn't my meaning.


By what means is it shared, if not externalised? That said, I'm locating objectivity at least in part, in there being a process or party able to add description. Based on @Manbearcat's latest, I would clarify that the description I have in mind is not solely aeshetic: it includes that actions may be addressed toward it or incorporate it, and saying how it may respond or be changed.


If I read you correctly, you both want to deny the notion that

Seeing as you likely don't want to deny my testimony to my own experience, you are saying that this doesn't work for you. I'm not sure if will change that, but when I say "decided" I include actionability although I diverge from @Manbearcat in also caring about emotive and aesthetic qualities... whether or not they are actionable.

Do I read your comment correctly as proposing an alternative explanation intended to supplant my proposal, so that "lots of interconnections" is all that counts? I agree that a web of interconnections is significant, albeit I would say that again, the two explanations are not in conflict. Above you say that each participant's imagination acting as some sort of constraint on the others won't give rise to objectivity, but that would seem to be exactly the sort of process that would create a web of interconnections... meaning that if your alternative explanation is correct each party's independent and interdependent capacity to add to the web under some sort of constraints would give rise to objectivity. It's hard to see how constraints are not external factors (the constraint of rules, the constraint of what others have said.)

One example that seems salient here is Ironsworn. I've recommended it many times, and a fascinating way to play is coop or solo. Solo-play provides us with a handy case that rules out the role of other participants in the process. What is noteworthy in Ironsworn - widely commented on - is the role of Oracles in inspiring what you say (to yourself). What I note about that is the work done by the external factor, that makes what you say go on to feel more objectively real to you. I would urge you to play Ironsworn solo and revist the notions we're discussing here.


Rules are an external means for making content more objective. Nowhere am I prioritising one participant's narrative control over another. If a player declares that a guard at this gate is their friend, and I can ask them what her name is and they can say "Jo", then that enhances the feeling for me that the guard is real. I agree with your thoughts about enmeshing, and take them to complement or be part of the reifying of the imagined world.
I mostly don't like this very odd use of the term 'objective', which has an entirely different meaning almost unrelated to, practically opposite to, what is meant here. I would rather use something like 'salient' or significant, or other words which actually convey the sense intended because objective is just confusing and downright incorrect usage.
 

I think it's more a question of frequency. Character development feels devalued if it's too much of the field of play. Demonstrating these things has value separate from establishing or testing them.
My experience with Stonetop, which is the most immediate right now in my mind, is that FIRST we do some 'session 0' stuff, where the game actually outlines a set of questions you can ask, and things you can decide (mostly as a group) that help define each character and establish some preexisting backstory. THEN you start playing, and BAM! Right away Yorath and Donel are interacting, with each other, with Donel's crew, with the elders, with Yorath's friend Emrys, with the ranger, Branwyn, etc. This is RP, it is "we are doing stuff" AND it is definitely bearing on their relationships.

Yorath has a conflict with an elder, and it is slowly tearing apart the council and thus perhaps Stonetop itself. So finally last session he realizes that, as selfish as Yorath is, he really has no better place to go than Stonetop, he's at least mostly accepted here, and he has some leeway to do his Fox stuff if he's not too crazy about it (IE no robbing his neighbors). So he gives in and agrees to take the necessary action to end the conflict, which means a dangerous outland mission to find the elder's daughter and bring her back.

Now he's got to get Donal onboard, but luckily the two of them seem to naturally fall in together, both being scoundrels at heart, to a degree. Plus Yorath is kind of impressed with Donal's daring do. He's also won around Emrys, and so off we go to steal a girl from dangerous nomads. It is all personality driven, really. I find it is the reverse of D&D games, where I first have to engineer why it is my character is doing this thing, and THEN express some sort of personality within those confines. It is like the opposite of Stonetop!
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
I mostly don't like this very odd use of the term 'objective', which has an entirely different meaning almost unrelated to, practically opposite to, what is meant here. I would rather use something like 'salient' or significant, or other words which actually convey the sense intended because objective is just confusing and downright incorrect usage.
"Objective" is certainly closer to the sense I intend than "salient" or "significant". I'm thinking about what I can pretend is real, and what I can pretend exists and has standing in its own right... that I can pretend exists apart from me.

So when I am pretending that the Great Library exists, I am pretending that I can go away, stop thinking about it for awhile, and it will still be there. I could ask whoever has the job of describing it "Any news fron the Great Library?" And it is possible there would be. Things can happen to it, not always of my own hand.

Whether one wants to only make the significant or salient objective is a separate question. It sounds like some do and others do not. One could even decide on a very weak definition for salience and say it is salient if it appears in our play at all.

Folk have used words in the past like consistency, persistence, plausibility, credibility, realism. I feel the last three are doubtful as it is all pretended and thus in our real world subjective... down in good part to norms. Apparently normal barring accepted exceptions might be a better way of looking at it.

X feels objective if I can sustain a pretence that X exists separately from me. That I can pretend, contrary to the truth, that the game world exists. One quality of a separate world is that it's not all about me: ergo insisting on salience would have an effect opposite that proposed.

I'm not incidentally arguing that it must be or is only this way. I'm speaking more on the side of how to achieve it when that is what you want. In that light, perhaps what you are saying is that you want only the significant or salient. A mode of play.
 
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And I want to be clear, I don't think presestablishing connections or relationships at sessiosn zero is bad thing at all. It is very good thing. I just don't think it can replace creating and fleshing out the connections during play. So I don't see them as being in competition, I see them complementing each other.

why-not-both-why-not.gif
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
And I want to be clear, I don't think presestablishing connections or relationships at sessiosn zero is bad thing at all. It is very good thing. I just don't think it can replace creating and fleshing out the connections during play. So I don't see them as being in competition, I see them complementing each other.

why-not-both-why-not.gif
Connections from character creation are great- it gives the players something to have fun with. "hey we're cousins! We can make up and reference family gatherings etc."
But as the GM ( or player actually) the valuable and memorable stuff is what happens during the game.

But I'm also the kind of GM that will not use a character origin/backstory if it's longer than a paragraph. I won't remember it, and because it didn't happen in the game I won't think to incorporate it since I'm very improv-heavy. It just won't make its mark on my brain like stuff that actually happens during a session would.
 

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