D&D General The 13th Age 2nd Edition Kickstarter Has Launched

Updated, streamlined, and backwards-compatible!

Screenshot 2024-05-08 at 10.41.20.png


13th Age was released 10 years ago as a 'love letter' to D&D. Designed by D&D 3E's Jonathan Tweet and 4E's Rob Heinsoo, it streamlined the game and introduced innovations such as the Escalation Die, and it's One Unique Thing, a trait that every character has which is individual to them.

2nd Edition is now here--streamlined, clarified, backward-compatible, and updated with revised classes, monsters, and more. And, unlike the single book format of the original, this version comes in the form of a 240-page Player's Handbook and a 160-page Gamemaster's Guide.

You can pick up both books for £40 in PDF or £100 in hardcover format, plus dice, a GM screen, and more.

There's a free preview document available (12-page PDF).

Designer Rob Heinsoo spoke to EN Publishing's Jessica Hancock about 13th Age 2E last year on the Not DnD show.

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Morrus

Morrus is the owner of EN World and EN Publishing, creator of the ENnies, creator of the What's OLD is NEW (WOIN), Simply6, and Awfully Cheerful Engine game systems, publisher of Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition, and co-host of the weekly Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG Talk podcast. He has been a game publisher and RPG community administrator for over 20 years, and has been reporting on TTRPG and D&D news for over two decades. He is also on the socials.
MuhVerisimilitude

MuhVerisimilitude

Hero
CapnZapp said:
Is it just me, or does the timing feel off?

This year is all about 2024 5th Edition.

Once we have tried that, we're easily in 2025 if not 2026.

That would be a great time for a new edition of a game professing to be a D&D alternative.

Now? Not sure I'll remember to check out a game that will be over a year old by the time the initial buzz over D&D has died down...
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They might not care. They might also be reasoning that the new version of 5E will not be too attention grabbing and that they hope that there will be discourse over 5.2E and alternatives and that that discourse will benefit them.
 

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MuhVerisimilitude

MuhVerisimilitude

Hero
CapnZapp said:
The problem with PF2 isn't chiefly that it offers more crunch, but that it's crunch is empty calories.

There's a lot of crunch, but very few instances where the game trust the player to make meaningful choices. Mostly the crunch boils down to incredibly controlled and limited "do you want +1 to this incredibly niche use case, or +1 to that equally nich use case"

To me 5th edition works because, yes, the crunch load is lighter, but mostly because the game trusts the players and the GM to a much greater degree. Your choices actually matter. The choices meaningfully impact your character's abilities.

Everything in PF2 is locked down to an obnoxious degree.

That and the unfortunate fact quite a lot of it's crunch being simply bad. The healing subsystem, for instance. A load of rules and decision points that ultimately isn't impactful, only busywork.
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I think that Pathfinder 2E is at its core is better designed than D&D 5E. 2E provides a fairly stable framework to create new systems and options for, something that 5E doesn't really do.

For example there are only two systems in 5E. Spell casting and skills. There is no unified system like skill feats, or focus spells and there certainly isn't a robust action system.

For sure there are flaws with PF2. I think there is a bit too much fiddly crunch, but a lot of the heavier things in the system are actually useful to the design itself. Degrees of success, for example.

2E might be full of empty calories, but 5E is a plateful of air.
 

BigZebra

BigZebra

Adventurer
CapnZapp said:
The problem with PF2 isn't chiefly that it offers more crunch, but that it's crunch is empty calories.

There's a lot of crunch, but very few instances where the game trust the player to make meaningful choices. Mostly the crunch boils down to incredibly controlled and limited "do you want +1 to this incredibly niche use case, or +1 to that equally nich use case"

To me 5th edition works because, yes, the crunch load is lighter, but mostly because the game trusts the players and the GM to a much greater degree. Your choices actually matter. The choices meaningfully impact your character's abilities.

Everything in PF2 is locked down to an obnoxious degree.

That and the unfortunate fact quite a lot of it's crunch being simply bad. The healing subsystem, for instance. A load of rules and decision points that ultimately isn't impactful, only busywork.
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Exactly our experience with PF2. It seems they retained the tactical game play and balance of 4th edition but removed all the enjoyable elements. Similarly, they incorporated numerous options from 3.5 but stripped away the fun parts.

PF2 offers so many choices that ultimately don’t seem to matter. It also consistently disappoints players, with monsters frequently making their saves.

Moreover, it appears that Paizo continues to design Adventure Paths (APs) in the style of PF1, which doesn’t suit PF2 since it is no longer a game focused on resource attrition.

I really wanted to enjoy PF2, but I couldn't. Nevertheless, I still appreciate Paizo for being a vital competitor in the fantasy RPG industry. That’s important.
 
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EzekielRaiden

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
CapnZapp said:
Is it just me, or does the timing feel off?

This year is all about 2024 5th Edition.

Once we have tried that, we're easily in 2025 if not 2026.

That would be a great time for a new edition of a game professing to be a D&D alternative.

Now? Not sure I'll remember to check out a game that will be over a year old by the time the initial buzz over D&D has died down...
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If the kickstarter is now, we're not seeing books until next year. Possibly the year after.

Now is the time to seek funding if you want to be publishing a book in 2026.
 

mamba

mamba

Legend
CapnZapp said:
Is it just me, or does the timing feel off?

This year is all about 2024 5th Edition.

Once we have tried that, we're easily in 2025 if not 2026.

That would be a great time for a new edition of a game professing to be a D&D alternative.
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the KS is now, that does not mean the game is out in a month… the estimated delivery is 08/2025, and that is for backers, could be another few months for the general public, so you are basically right in the timeframe you wanted, it’s just a matter of whether you have the foresight to pledge now or get it once it is released ;)
 
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Blue

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
CapnZapp said:
Just to clarify:

2nd edition Pathfinder is an entirely new game that does not build upon 1st edition.

It is to 1st edition what 4th edition is to 3rd edition D&D.

Just to say that if you wish for a game to "come into its own", maybe be careful what you wish for...? 😉
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Thanks, I hadn't realized how much PF2 differed from PF1.
 

Blue

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
CapnZapp said:
Just a random comment:

I would think repeating the same design comment as in a previous edition would feel wasteful and redundant.

Commenting upon new or changed rules, sure, absolutely. Providing insight in previous design or comments, yes please.

But the previous edition design comments can always be read... in that edition. Better use that space for something new.
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This assumes that the person owns the 1st edition core book in either PDF or hardcover. These aren't in the SRD. And since they are quite useful for tweaking, hacking, and just unerstanding the intentr of rules, if those rules come over in the same form those will still be useful.

I'd rather that advice be available for everyone than only those who also invested in 1st edition. And with breaking up the core book into a player's guide and a GM guide there's plentiful page count to have those plus more. Heck, I don't want to in four years have to reference rules in 1st to see if they are the same and if so do they have designer advice about them - I want that all in the edition I'm playing.

So my preference differs from yours, though I see where you are coming from.
 

CapnZapp

CapnZapp

Legend
MuhVerisimilitude said:
They might not care. They might also be reasoning that the new version of 5E will not be too attention grabbing and that they hope that there will be discourse over 5.2E and alternatives and that that discourse will benefit them.
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That discourse will be happening. In a year or two, when the excitement has died down and people start realizing the new 5E is just like the old 5E.

So that's why I thought the timing was off. The announcements and media hoopla should come next fall, not this fall. Now, there's no time in people's calendar because "everybody" are itching to try out the 2024 5E.
 

Shardstone

Shardstone

Hero
CapnZapp said:
That discourse will be happening. In a year or two, when the excitement has died down and people start realizing the new 5E is just like the old 5E.

So that's why I thought the timing was off. The announcements and media hoopla should come next fall, not this fall. Now, there's no time in people's calendar because "everybody" are itching to try out the 2024 5E.
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It just isn't worthwhile for any publisher to care what WotC's publication schedule is. This would only matter if the folks producing 13th Age were anywhere in the ballpark of WotC, but instead they are orders of magnitude smaller. Therefore, it really doesn't matter what WotC does, because even at its best, 13th Age will be a blip on the blip of its radar, not actual competition.
 

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