Druid's Wildshape

mikebr99 said:

Just so we're clear... when one of your players Polymorphs or wildshapes... He would get the benefits of the new STR (to hit, damage... etc.) and DEX (AC... etc.) BUT nothing from the CON?

Click to expand...

No he gets everything from the new Con except hit points. He get improved (or worsened) for save, increased (or reduced) suceptibility to Con damage, improved (or worsened) Concentration skill check and Con ability checks.

He would also gain or lose anything else his Con might effect due to a special ability (such as that dwarf PrC that allows Con to AC).

Everything that Con affects except hp.

Why does Poly take the time to note specifically that you get a new STR, DEX, & CON... which trumps Alter Self... and then not allow their respective benefits??????????????

Does that actually make sense to you?

Click to expand...

Well, that wouldn't make a lot of sense, but since it's not what I said it's a straw man.


glass.

With respect to glass I believe these statements are wrong.

CON changes, HPs change.

I have emailed WotC customer service on this point and they indicated that HPs change.
There has apparently been a Rules of the Game article which stated the same thing.

Since the PHB is ambiguous it is, in my opinion, necessary to refer to these unambiguous external sources.

Glass is right on all counts. (This is something of a pet subject of mine, so I'll be modifying/copying some bits from an earlier discussion.)

According to the core rules and published game supplements, your hit points don't change when you change form with polymorph, wild shape or alternate form.

The polymorph spell (through alter self) specifies that "your hit points remain the same". The DMG (errata) description of the polymorph effect repeats this rule - "polymorphed creatures retain their original hit points." The same rule in confirmed in the MM description of alternate form (works like polymorph, with some exceptions): "The creature retains its hit points ..."

This is the rule WotC's game designers use. See Complete Warrior page 65 or Complete Arcane page 53 for official examples of polymorphed/wild-shaped NPCs. (Their hit points remain the same despite a changed Con in their new forms.)

There are two common objections to these published rules:

Objection 1: "While the rules do say that your hit points remain the same, the rule in question only applies if there no reason (such as a changed Con) for your hit points to change."

I'm sure most people can see the absurdity of this interpretation. A rule doesn't become "ambiguous" just because it doesn't add a clarifying note explaining that it does indeed mean what it says.

This interpretation is also contradicted by Skip Williams, who makes it clear in his articles that the phrase "[you] retain [your] hit points" means that your hit points don't change despite a changed Con. (See his discussion of alternate form in part 4 of the polymorph articles.)

Finally it makes the rule in question rather pointless, as it won't prevent your hit points from changing if you can think of any reason (such as different Hit Dice) for your hit points to change. :\

Objection 2: " 'Hit points' refers to 'base hit points', and those remain the same."

This is contradicted by Skip Williams, who says that "the subject's hit points change".

More importantly, it is also directly contradicted by the definition and usage of the game term "hit points" in the rules.

A changed Con modifier (barring exceptions like polymorph, alternate form or familiar hit points) increases or decreases (or "changes") a creature's hit points, regardless of whether the change is permanent or temporary. See the DnD glossary, the PH page 9 (under "Constitution") or the PH page 136 (under "hit points") if you need this fact confirmed. There is no term called "base hit points" in the game.

(Those familiar with 3.0 will find this interpretation especially absurd, as it assumes that they copy-pasted wording from the 3.0 spell intending for a defined game term - "hit points" - to mean something different in the exact same context in the 3.5 spell...)

anon said:

With respect to glass I believe these statements are wrong. CON changes, HPs change.

Click to expand...

What happens when a familiar's Con changes?

I have emailed WotC customer service on this point and they indicated that HPs change. There has apparently been a Rules of the Game article which stated the same thing.

Click to expand...

Neither of which are the rules of D&D. The rules are in the books. If customer services thinks I am wrong that supports my position more than it undermines it.

Since the PHB is ambiguous it is, in my opinion, necessary to refer to these unambiguous external sources.

Click to expand...

The PHB says something like 'hit points do not change'. It'd be hard to imagine how it could be less ambiguous.


glass.

Iku Rex said:

Glass is right on all counts.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Iku Rex. I was beginning to feel like a lone voice, crying in the wilderness...


glass.

glass said:

Thanks, Iku Rex. I was beginning to feel like a lone voice, crying in the wilderness...


glass.

Click to expand...

So there's two of you crying in the wilderness now...


Alter self (2nd level) does not change your stats, and does not cure you of any of your damage... It also says you don't change your HPs... but this is redundant.

Polymorph does change your physical stats, and does cure you of some of your damage... and does not say anything about limits on any of these new stats you get.


Mike

mikebr99 said:

Alter self (2nd level) does not change your stats, and does not cure you of any of your damage... It also says you don't change your HPs... but this is redundant.

Click to expand...

It is possibly redundant in Alter Self. It is not redundant in Polymorph.

Polymorph does change your physical stats, and does cure you of some of your damage... and does not say anything about limits on any of these new stats you get.

Click to expand...

Yes it does! It says...

The SRD said:

This spell functions like alter self

Click to expand...

glass.

mikebr99 said:

Polymorph does change your physical stats, and does cure you of some of your damage... and does not say anything about limits on any of these new stats you get.

Click to expand...

The DM's guide errata does impose this limit

DMG errata said:

Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary
special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120
feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural
armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other
gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of
limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence,
Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save
bonuses, and alignment.

Click to expand...

Emphasis mine

To allow hit points to change you have to ignore this errata on the basis that this being a DMG errata it is a secondary source and doesn't apply. However, you only normally use that logic when a rule is in conflict and as ploymorph in the PHB doesn't actually specify either way I simply see this as a clarification

You also have to ignore as Iku Rex states every printed example of a wildshaped/polymorphed creature that has been released. I can add Primeval from Frostburn to that list which specifically shows a changed hit point total for the sample character when in rage but makes no mention of a changed hit point total when in animal form. It does however detail all other modifications which would apply.

The game designers have mutiple times used the hit points do not change ruling and in fact the only documentation claiming that hit points change is the Rules of the Game as far as I am aware

As I said earlier our group plays hit points change but we appreciate that that is wrong

Ah, the debate that won't die and will, if allowed, overtake all other threads! The whole 'CON changes do/don't effect HPs' debate has been going on strong for some time and it seems that no amount of publishing, editing, errata, typos and so forth will change the opinions of those who want to hold to them. As much as I would love to jump into it pointing out where people are being selective in their reading, I will try to set a good example and let it go. I think we can safely say that we have given Moriarty all the information he needs to make a decision on which way he wants to go with it. How about we let this line of debate die for a change and more fully address the rest of his question? If one simply must continue it, how about a new thread?

As far as how the druid can be effective in combat with wildshape, I would strongly encourage the player to look over his spell lists with an eye toward buff spells. I have seen buffed wildshaped druids unleash havok in melee that a enraged power-attacking barbarian would envy. Also don't forget a druids ability to assume an aquatic form for underwater exploration. In one game I was in, no interesting waterway went unexplored while we were underground. He is probably lucky he didn't get attacked while solo...