The future of Greyhawk - PreVote Discussion

Background:

The ISRP team has already presented a definitive proposal to remove Juxta as a setting. Juxta will be replaced with the setting selected by a general consensus/vote as outlined in a previous thread.

The other piece of this ISRP area overhaul is fine tuning the Greyhawk/CRT setting. There are two proposals to do as much.

The discussion will have several pieces. The first will be to present each proposal as they stand for discussion and potential modification. The basic proposals are fairly straightforward and ideally complete. A brief amount of time will be given for comments on them, a chance for any revisions to be proposed and discussed, after which a final proposal will be presented and a vote held.

A nay vote would result in the Greyhawk setting staying relatively similar to how it is now. A yay vote would accept the designated proposal (in it's final form), and we would proceed with the additional pieces as outlined before, voting and discussion each one and any additional proposed until we have a complete and well rounded picture of the new setting.

This discussion will last at least one week, with a tentative end date of Saturday June 18th.

So without further ado:

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The Setting Restricted Proposal

The idea in mind was to create one highly flexible, high-magic, high-variety and high-tolerance setting (the Juxta replacement) which would compliment this proposal to further transform the Greyhawk setting into a more experienced, advanced freeform area with character/action restrictions, lower-magic and a generally more enforced and perhaps realistic setting environment for those wishing a more guided role-playing area.

The Skeleton Proposal (Setting Restrictions):

Core proposed restrictions:
No gods or god avatars.
No unaccompanied children under the age of 12 allowed in the Tavern.
No tech beyond fairly simple clockwork. The setting specifically forbids it.
Restrictions on animals; this means barnyard types and wild animals would not be allowed. Weres and specific animal companions, not included.
No non-Staff behind the bar or in the kitchen (Which is behind the bar )
Characters such as demons, devils, required be 'in disguise' at all times while in the tavern as on Oerth, demonkind and so forth were sent packing some years ago after traumatic wars. They would not ever show themselves openly in public. Demons are simply despised and the Neutral Ground aspect of the Tavern would be no protection for them.
Chronomancy cannot be used to bring future people or items back to the Tavern.

Other/Optional Restrictions:

Drow either be in disguise as the Demons and Devils, or allowed to be themselves *within* the tavern only.

Vampires either be in disguise or otherwise restricted in activities.

Weres be welcome in the Tavern but should be in their humanoid forms shortly after arriving up to just before departing.

Familiars be present only in the company of their masters and under their control.

Dragons be in human or human-like form while in the Tavern.

A fine or tax on the use of dangerous magic openly in the tavern. Such as slinging fireballs and so forth all about.

Limitations on slavery.

Limitations on offworld and/or unique magic.

Anything else proposed

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Secondary proposal (Open Portals):

Background:
The original CRT, near as I can tell from documentation I have inherited and my personal experiences at the time, was set in Greyhawk. The Tavern was blessed/cursed with a door that was truly a portal, opening to any time and any place at random. Guests who found themselves there could return home through another portal door. This allowed a wide variety of characters from any setting or genre to find their way to the Tavern. Now this is considerably more accomodating than the current setting in that literally any character could arrive in the tavern, including Jedi Knights, Cavemen, Cyborgs and Modern Day characters.

The Proposal
To return the CRT to it's roots. CRT would remain set in the realm of Greyhawk that it currently resides. The portal doors would re-activate and that area of Greyhawk would find itself experiencing an influx of new and strange people. Siani, as an accomodating tavern owner, would agree that these visitors would be able to make use of her Tavern and it's surrounding grounds on the terms that they obeyed her simple tavern rules, and did not interfere in the surrounding countryside. Visitors leaving the Tavern grounds would be subject to extreme hostility and quarantine from local law enforcement, and Siani would not guarantee their safety or acceptance, nor would she be liable for any personal or physical property damage incurred as a result. Visitors refusing to accept the simple tavern rules may find themselves hocked back through the portal they came (to what degree enforced to be determined by the options below - under Overall Summary).

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Query: How do we uphold setting restrictions without getting terribly complicated.

Suggestion: A non CoC variation of Room Disruption; we might refer to it as Setting Disruption. It would carry the same Three Strikes as any CoC warning, but in this case, the *character*, not the player, would wind up barred from the room. Please remember this would not be a disciplinary action, but a role-playing restriction. However, any player that displays intentional disregard for the Setting with the intent of inciting Room Disruption would be subject to the CoC category of Room Disruption and may receive a subsequent CoC based official warning and/or CoC discipline for their disruptive actions.. We don't want to penalize a *player* for Setting Disruption unless forced by that player to do so. Generally speaking, we would work on the philosophy that everyone has a right to be there and understands the Setting and Room guidelines until they prove otherwise past the point of doubt.

Additional discussion point to consider: Should patrons be able to be significant people in the setting? That is, major members of the Town and so on. Can they work for the Tavern in some way? Guidelines may be created to assist this. Examples to consider would be: no official CoC warnings against the username, passed a Setting quiz, has 0-1 setting based disruption warnings. Also, priviliges could be revoked based on receiving either Setting Disruption warnings/reminders or Official CoC warnings/reminders as deemed appropriate. Significant characters could likewise be limited to non-law enforcement or other specific character types to prevent specific abuse concerns.

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Overall Summary of how a vote might look:

Option A: Leave Greyhawk as it is.
Option B: Accept the Setting Restricted proposal (with mini-votes to determine which restrictions are set)
Option C: Accept the Open Portals proposal
Option D: Accept the Open Portals proposal and several restrictions to characters/actions ( mini-votes to determine which restrictions are set. Examples of suggested restrictions would include children and animal limitations.)

Well, like I said over on the Juxta thread, the fate of the tavern is large dependant on what becomes the new setting. I honestly can't says one way or another until that is decided. So, I'll make some choices based on assumptions.

Assumption 1: Eberron/Forgotten Realms wins as new setting, the staff places the new market in Waterdeep.

If this were the case, my vote would be option D.

Assumption 2: Sigil (or on a longshot Union) wins as the new setting.

Option B here.

Assumption 3: Eberron/Forgotten Realms wins as the new setting, but the staff places it somewhere "unnatural". Such as, Dark Calimport, Skullport, or even Thay (it could be a magical oddity).

Option B again.

So, for me, the fate of the tavern is entirely based on what the vote turns out for the new rooms. Of them all, I would like Option B to come to pass, but I understand that the tavern can more easily become the free-for-all setting with the least amound of effort.

As for you suggestion to uphold the restrictions, it's just fine with me. An actual in-character penalty for breaking the laws/rules would be nice for once.

Nevine said:

An actual in-character penalty for breaking the laws/rules would be nice for once.

Click to expand...

It's about time.

And with the new chat, and how it utilizes our boards user names for our characters, it will be easy to use the board to give/show penalties (if desired).

My vote will be for Options B and D. Though some additions to the restrictions might be necessary depending on the setting.

For instance, the Red Wizards of Thay and the Zhentarim are pretty organized...but their presence generally requires disguise in certain areas in order to avoid detection/arouse suspicion.

I agree. B or D seem to be the best options. I -do- think that, especially with the tavern being in Greyhawk, and the multiple times I've been reminded of the vast difference between Greyhawk (which I'm less accustomed to but learning) and FR (which was the setting I was introduced to DnD with and thus am more familiar with though no expert on by a long shot...), I think it would be more fitting to have the tavern as the more strict setting of the two.

Example, and this is the first one that comes to mind so don't shoot me

Drow:
Greyhawk - Killed on sight, no questions asked, and not welcome whatsoever
Forgotten Realms - Well, we have Drizzt and the followers of Eilistraee, so while they may not be totally 100% accepted...need I say more?

The point is that Greyhawk is naturally the more restrictive of not only it vs FR, but of most if not all the settings being examined, so therefore the option to make it more restricted (B) and thus bring it back to its roots seems more viable to me.

My :twocents:
-Draggy

Unless hosted hours are going to be increased to twenty-four hours a day, I would say option C.

Without the extra hosting, any attempt to stymid creativity (any setting restriction limits creativity to one degree or another) will be summarily ignored. Like the mercurial skies of Juxta, or the withering death, or the sonic attack, or the fact that large creatures die quicker.

With the extra hours, I would love to see B.

hmm

I'm gonna hop on the bandwagon here and agree with the suggestions above:

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  I like the idea of option B, but only if these things are actually cracked down upon hard so they become habit, rather than an only-during-hosted-hours things. I.E surface elves not turning the other cheek when drow elves walk in in plain view and such.

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  However, if the new setting isn't as open and free-for-all as a place such as Sigil then I'd like to see option D instead. I just don't see devils and demons and celestials all wandering around together on Faerun, but in the CRT it seems like it could be plausible. EDIT: But only in the CRT itself. Anywhere outside the tavern, it just wouldn't happen. Locals would come beating down Siani's doors if they knew that she was allowing nasty creatures into her house.

I would love to see option B, not only does it actually fit the stricter setting, but it would also inspire better and more creative roleplay. After all, villains would have to become really, really sneaky instead of the out right, "Hey look at me, I'm evil!" that we see so much. Anyone that isn't 'normal' would have to be very secretive about it. Could you imagine the possibilites for gossip?

Vampires would have to to pretend to eat and drink and make their skin seem warm in order to go un noticed, stealing their victims in the quiet hours and leaving no witnesses.. and so on. Could be fun.

Rhane Arturant said:

I would love to see option B, not only does it actually fit the stricter setting, but it would also inspire better and more creative roleplay. After all, villains would have to become really, really sneaky instead of the out right, "Hey look at me, I'm evil!" that we see so much. Anyone that isn't 'normal' would have to be very secretive about it. Could you imagine the possibilites for gossip?

Vampires would have to to pretend to eat and drink and make their skin seem warm in order to go un noticed, stealing their victims in the quiet hours and leaving no witnesses.. and so on. Could be fun.

Click to expand...

Whoo-hoo to that!

I'm in full agreement with Nevine on this. It depends too much on what the second 'traditional' fantasy setting will be to decide on a definite answer at the moment.

If the second room becomes Sigil based (and I hope it will), then the tavern becoming the more restricted setting would be optimal. Being on a Prime world with the second option being a planar metropolis, the closed-in setting would work more easily and with less displacement of the established characters as they could still feasably be played despite the change.

If the second room is Abier-Toril based (which I hope it isn't ), then I think the tavern should gain the open-setting option simply because many characters would refuse to enter Torilspace, or even know enough of it to find their way there. Having the open setting in the familiar tavern would provide those characters with a chance to still be played.

Well.. I imagine thise vote, will be based a good deal, on what the outcome of the new room to replace Juxtaposition will be.

Just as everyone else has said..

so.. yeah..

well B COULD be fun.... but as most people know... I play a slave character, she's friendly, happy, and polite... I don't see any problems with her. but there ARE some people that like playing the more traditional kind, few and far between, but you'd basically be telling them their characters are not welcomed. so people they have grown accustomed to playing with that go into CRT either would have to leave to go to the other room, or stay there and make the other character come to them against the "law" of the land and eventually get forced out and not be allowed in ever... so I have to say depending on what the outcome of the "limitations on slavery" is before I agree to it.. so for now I'm going with a limited D vote.

I don't want any more jedi, robots, trenchcoat and sunglasses wearing gunslingers, or anything of the sort. but open portals to Forgotten Realms, Birthright, and other such settings that have nothing to DO with the future should be allowed.