Definitive LA+0 Reptilian and Feline Races

Halflings get a couple of dex-related skill bonuses along with their actual Dex bonus, so I don't see it as excessive. Cats really are quite good at balancing and padding about quietly.

I don't really see a need for a second +Cha race either, the Almaren fill that role well enough. Wizards of the Coast just doesn't like to give mental ability boosts to core races, but really, they're hardly any better for casters than a +Str or +Dex would be for warriors and rogues. Heck, for a typical rogue, +2 Dex will yield +1 Init, +1 AC, +1 Reflex, +1 on ranged attacks, and +1 on probably half a dozen or so skills.

For an Almaren, +2 Cha yields +1 on a couple of skills, and, if they take an appropriate class, it'll also yield +1 to spell save DCs, +1 1st-level spell per day maybe (if they max the score out), and that's it. If they become Clerics or Paladins then it would also give +1 on turning checks/damage (big whoop), and for a paladin it'd also grant +1 point of Lay On Hands healing per level and +1 point of attack bonus with Smite Evil. I'd hardly call that breaking the game. Nearly all of that is negligible and significantly less likely to be useful to most Almaren compared to the benefits of +2 Dex. +2 Int or +2 Wis would only be slightly better than +2 Cha, simply because Wis and Int each have one or two more minor benefits but fewer class-specific benefits. Wizards of the Coast just doesn't want to give the impression that one core race is inherantly better at using magic than the other core races, for whatever reason. Regardless of how negligible the actual spellcasting impact is (+1 to DCs; a feat worth of value at best, and that's considering that Spell Focus was nerfed).

I'd go the Str mod + Dex mod route for Swift Jump.

Anyway, the +2 Balance and +2 Move Silently would help balance the race out a bit, as it's kinda on the weak side without it. A human's bonus skill points would more than make up for the few skill bonuses, while a human's versatile bonus feat choice would more than make up for Low-Light Vision, while Swift Jump, Natural Grace, and Wandering Mind balance each other out at the very least. And a human still has multiclassing flexibility, and the general flexibility of his/her feat and skill benefits. +4 Dex at the expense of -2 Str and Con pretty well balances out; any class that could make good use of +4 Dex will be hurt by the Con penalty, and in most cases the Str penalty too (and those that don't use Str so much would be those who already have a d6 or d4 hit die, making -2 Con a more significant hit than for the warrior-types with big HP).

40 foot movement speed, in addition or instead, would be fine. Trust me, +10 feet of speed rarely means anything unless you play a very unusual sort of campaign. I've played and seen played plenty of monks and barbarians, and their extra speed is rarely of consequence; at best so far, my monk/barbarian Argus (well, ex-monk) can manage to keep up with most horses with his 50 foot speed (except for unencumbered/lightly-armored light horses), assuming the horses don't run (as they have the Run feat and Argus doesn't). Argus has gotten no other benefit from his speed, only that he can chase after a mounted enemy a short distance if that mounted enemy isn't running full-tilt (which requires a fairly clear and straight path anyway, only common in fields or non-busy roads). 40 feet of movement speed is just a minor boost to the character's combat maneuvering; i.e. PC moves 80 feet back with withdraw action, enemy with 30 foot speed can't attack him this turn unless mounted on something faster, and likely needs to run up to the PC instead (effectively, both waste their turn maneuvering away from the main fight).
 

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+4 to a stat is not substantially better than +2 in most cases. With Strength or a casting stat it might, on rare occasions, matter. The Malken though have -2 Str and Con, which well balances the benefits of +4 Dex to any classes that could really use that Dex bonus. +4 Dex wouldn't be balanced if it were only countered by -2 Wis/Cha, for instance, because most classes that could use +4 Dex wouldn't much care about losing 2 Wis/Cha, but in the Malken's case the penalized abilities are quite relevant to the classes that could most benefit from Dex.

Similarly, +4 Str for -2 Dex and Int wouldn't quite be balanced because it has little impact on a melee-specialist's capabiilities, but +4 Str for -2 Dex and Con would likely be fair (albeit still a tad in the melee-specialist's favor). Likewise, +4 Cha for -4 Str, or +4 Cha for -2 Str and Dex, likely wouldn't be well-balanced because bards and sorcerers could easily circumvent the need for those penalized scores (not to mention just using Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace to overcome the penalties), and could easily focus on using Cha-based skills and spells that rely on saving throws rather than attack rolls. The Almaren's +2 Cha is neatly balanced though by their -2 Con (everyone needs Constitution!); it's not too big of a modifier to make a signficiant difference compared to the minor or moderate inconvenience of -2 Constitution.
 

Arkhandus, very good points, all around. The only problem i see with giving +4 to a given ability is that, bye and far, very few +0 LA races have it . . . Gnolls (+1 LA) have +4 Str, Kobolds have -4 Str (+0 LA, just thought id mention the other end of the spectrum), Githzerai have +6 Dex (+2 LA), Trogs have +4 Con (+2 LA and 2 HD), Thri-kreen have +4 Dex (+2 LA and 2 HD)

as you can see none here have +4 in an ability and are LA +0. Thus, i'd call +4 to one ability too much. After all, WotC has playtesting for a reason, dont they??

as i said before, i go for +2 Dex, -2 Str, and for the Swift leap, i'd use my revised version, as follows: Swift Leap: if it is to their advantage, Malkens may use their Dex mod instead of their Str mod with Jump checks.

other than those issues, i have enjoyed helping create this race (and would like to take this oppertunity to thank the creator of the original Katara for their original ideas) adn welcome feedback to what i just stated above.
 

WotC just doesn't want any one race appear to be the absolute best to the exclusion of all others for a given character archetype. Even if the appearance is deceptive. That's why all the core races have only minor adjustments. For instance: WotC doesn't want elves to appear eclipsed as the best core magic users, because that's their traditional D&D role, so they haven't allowed any core races to have anything even smacking of 'magical superiority' (aside from gnomes' very minor and limited illusion stuff, as they too are in a traditional niche) by comparison to elves' rather complete lack of magical benefits. Elves just have some proficiencies and resistances that are helpful to mages (4 hours of trance and immunity to sleep, for instance).

Just because WotC hasn't given a core race something doesn't mean that it's unfair, unbalanced, or inappropriate for an LA+0 race to have. There are, after all, only a handful of core races, and many of them fill similar niches for some reason (i.e. an elf and a halfling fill similar roles, while dwarves and half-orcs fill similar roles, and, well......). Simplicity is another thing they try to keep with the core races, so they don't give them anything that might require the player to actually use their head for a moment to figure it out or to figure out when they could best put it to use. Yet, other WotC books like the FRCS, OA, ECS, and such do indeed have some fairly different races with unusual or more advanced abilities. If the core races weren't all intended to be reasonably flexible (i.e. they don't want each core race to be shoehorned into one or two classes only; even half-orcs, for example, have some effectiveness as rangers, paladins, clerics, or druids), the core rules would've included a bit more variety amongst the races; maybe half-orcs could've had Scent, and elves could've had +2 Charisma, and gnomes could've been Tiny with a +4 to Dexterity and -4 Strength instead of -2 Strength and +2 Constitution.

And besides, if the DM is throwing out elves and such, they've already thrown out the only thing keeping WotC from including magically-oriented races from the core. They won't be violating some sacred cow by then introducing a +Cha race, or a race that gets +2 on spell save DCs, or a race that ignores a certain amount of arcane spell failure from armor, for instance.

PS: If WotC playtested things as thoroughly as they should've, do you really think we'd have had 3.5 (or even the need for a 3.5 at all), or any of the various glaring holes in either 3.x version? Would we really have such statistically-pathetic/useless races as 3.x half-elves or half-orcs? Would Harm have been so blatantly overpowered for its level? Would there have been so many people complaining in both 3.0 and 3.5 about how broken psionics is while still other people argue that it's just fine? I trust my own logic and examination moreso than I trust a money-motivated company that has deadlines which receive more emphasis than quality does. I like WotC, I really do, but that doesn't mean I trust their judgement and patience in getting a product out and done right, rather than just out on time. I've been playing Magic: The Gathering for around 10 years now, I'm well aware of Wizards' playtesting inadequecies and the kind of stuff that all-too-often slips through the cracks.
 
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Wow, thanks for all the input. I've taken these comments into consideration and come up with this draft:

+4 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Constitution.
Malken
Humanoid (Malken)
Medium: As Medium creatures, malekns have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Malken base land speed is 30 feet.
Swift Jump: Malkens' unique physiology allows them to make leaps much more gracefully than other humanoids. A malken may add their dexterity modifier instead of their strength modifier to Jump checks.
Keen Ears: Malkens have a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
Natural Grace: Malkens have a +2 racial bonus on Balance and Move Silently checks. For Malkens, Balance is always a class skill.
Wandering Mind: Malkens suffer a -1 penalty to saving throws against enchantment/charm effects and a -2 penalty to sense motive and concentration checks.
Low-Light Vision: A malken can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Favored Class: Rogue

Unless there are any further objections, this will likely be the version used in my campaign. Again, many thanks to everyone for your invaluable help, especially Nyaricus. EN World is amazing.
 

Here's another take I did on your cat-folk race... Personally, I would also shy away from +4s to +0 ECL creatures, even if it were balanced by the other two physical stats being penalized. I also agree that a plus to a mental stat can be ok, but you have to make sure it is adjusted for in a similar way. And I've never really liked the "___ is a class skill" thing, because the whole point of a -race- is that while many creatures are very similar and naturally inclined to something, not everyone is necessarily that way. Feel free to tinker; I think I've gone more along the "cat" route and less along the "rogue" route, and this might be too complicated, but see what you think:

Katara (name TBD, insert what you will):

- Type is Humanoid (Katara)
- Medium size
- Katara Land Speed is 30 feet
- Ability modifiers: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis, -2 Con (Katara are extremely quick and very sociable, but they lack physical endurance and are rather curious - and as a result they sometimes overlook dangers others might see)
OR
- Ability modifiers: +2 Dex, -2 Wis (Katara are extremely quick and nimble, but they are rather curious - and as a result they sometimes overlook dangers others might see)
- Keen Eyes and Ears: Katara can see and hear better than normal, and receive a +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks.
- Kataran Tail: Katara have tails that give them a +4 racial bonus to Balance checks. Any time their tail is unable to move freely (or if it is removed), they lose this bonus. However, their tail also has a tendency to betray their emotions by twitching and moving involuntarily, which gives them a -2 penalty to bluff checks. A Katara's tail is also a very distinctive feature that gives them a -2 penalty to disguise checks to impersonate other races.
- Nimble: Katara are agile, surefooted, and excellent climbers. They gain a +2 racial bonus to Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. In addition, Katara always land on their feet when falling from any distance.
- Small Frame: Katara are medium creatures, but they have a small frame and are able to compress their size when necessary. Katara are considered 1 size smaller creatures for moving through enemies' spaces (a creature may move through an enemy's space that is three sizes larger than it). They also take no penalties from squeezing through a space that is 1/2 their size or larger (normally creatures must move as if each space were 2 squares, and take penalties to attack rolls and armor class). Katara also gain a +2 racial bonus to hide checks. However, due to their smaller frames, Katara have carrying capacities of a small creature (3/4ths normal).
- Curious Mind: Katara are often too curious for their own good and are susecptable to the powers of suggestion. They take a -2 penalty to saves verses enchantment spells and effects.
OR
(None)
- Lowlight vision out to 60'
OR
- Darkvision out to 60'
- Automatic Languages: Common, Feline. Bonus Languages: Halfling, Gnome, Goblin, Elven, and Orc.
- Favored Class: Bard

Description: etc. etc.


EDIT: Added "ORs" above to reflect changed ideas.
 
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GoblinMasquerade said:
Wow, thanks for all the input. I've taken these comments into consideration and come up with this draft:

+4 Dexterity, -2 Strength, -2 Constitution.
Malken
Humanoid (Malken)
Medium: As Medium creatures, malekns have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Malken base land speed is 30 feet.
Swift Jump: Malkens' unique physiology allows them to make leaps much more gracefully than other humanoids. A malken may add their dexterity modifier instead of their strength modifier to Jump checks.
Keen Ears: Malkens have a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks.
Natural Grace: Malkens have a +2 racial bonus on Balance and Move Silently checks. For Malkens, Balance is always a class skill.
Wandering Mind: Malkens suffer a -1 penalty to saving throws against enchantment/charm effects and a -2 penalty to sense motive and concentration checks.
Low-Light Vision: A malken can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Favored Class: Rogue

i like it, but one last thing i would add in is what Thia Halmades has for their race> they may take the Scent feat (but only at first level; either you are born with it or you are not). other than that, i like this cat race, adn i plan to use it IMC in the future. overall, i like what has been done with this race. Also, evilbob has just entered in a submission to this thread, and makes a good point>cats are natural-born climbers. see how fast they can scamper up a tree? id give them +2 to climp, IMHO; and also a -4 (at least) to disguise checks to impersonate another humanoid. what with the tail, fur and whiskars, itd be hard to hide ones heritage around humans, etc.

Also, although i dont necessarily agree with your ability adjustments, i find it a hard argument to say that they aer over-powered in anyway. with rogue as a favoured class, the con will hurt them in exchange for the addition of a lot of Dex, and if they take a fighter or a
Mage type, the Str or Con will hurt them, respectively. these guys would make superb Clerics, INHO, what with avergae HP, but good dex, etc. All-in-all, i liek it.

GoblinMasquerade said:
Unless there are any further objections, this will likely be the version used in my campaign. Again, many thanks to everyone for your invaluable help, especially Nyaricus. EN World is amazing.
thanks for the complement; as soon as i found this thread, i jumped on it (post number 3, lol) and i am now considering making yet another campaign setting in addition to the one i have (well, i am making) already. The one i have is a more "serious" CS, set in the end of the Dark Ages of my world, with crusades and such starting up, with many tolkien influences. this new campaign setting will be a more "neo-fantasy" setting, like Forgotten Realms, or World of Warcraft as good examples. whereas my first example was a more "low-magic, grim n gritty" the new one will be more high fantassy, with more races inspired by resources other than tolkien and real-world folklores and such. anyways, i gotta go to work, ttyl everyone.
 

For a reptilian race, feel free to use my Celirans; you should also examine Trilobite's version of the Lizardfolk.

My Cartfolk (inspired by the Katara)
* Type is Humanoid (Feline)
* +2 to Dexterity, -2 to Wisdom. Catfolk are agile and swift, but tend to be rather impulsive and restless.
* Medium Size: as medium-size creatures, Catfolk have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
*Catfolk base speed is 30 feet.
* Lowlight vision
* Keen Senses: +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot checks.
* Natural Grace: +2 racial bonus to Move Silently, Balance, and Tumble. Balance is always a class skill.
* Automatic Languages: Feline and Goblin. Bonus Languages: Ceran, Dwarven, Sylvan and Drakonian.
* Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass Catfolk's Ranger class does no count when determining whether he suffers an XP penalty when multiclassing. Catfolk are well adapted to hunting and to wilderness life, and even those of them born in the larger cities still feel at home in the wilderness.

I intend to model their culture (and religion/magic) somewhat after Egyptian mythology, with slightly better native technology (late iron age instead of very early iron age) and a slightly less opressive regime (even though their queens are called Pharaos and are mummified when they die). Ofcourse, currently the technology in their homelands is more advanced - but that is because they were conquered by the great Hobgoblin Empire to their south, which is in possession of early steam/clockwork technology (which is inferior to Argexan technology, but is still a bit steampunkish). I'd be glad to have some help with their racial stats reflecting something more... egyptian. Oh, and their chief goddess is modeled after Baastet (sp?).
 

Since I've got the version of the Malken finalized for use in my own campaign, I'm taking my hands off of this thread and allow things to continue as they may. One last time, thanks for everyone's input.

Nyaricus, hope to see you around the boards again in the future!
 

Nyaricus said:
Arkhandus, very good points, all around. The only problem i see with giving +4 to a given ability is that, bye and far, very few +0 LA races have it . . . Gnolls (+1 LA) have +4 Str, Kobolds have -4 Str (+0 LA, just thought id mention the other end of the spectrum), Githzerai have +6 Dex (+2 LA), Trogs have +4 Con (+2 LA and 2 HD), Thri-kreen have +4 Dex (+2 LA and 2 HD)

as you can see none here have +4 in an ability and are LA +0. Thus, i'd call +4 to one ability too much. After all, WotC has playtesting for a reason, dont they??
A nice compilation, and a +4 bonus to an ability may really be too high for LA +0. But you've forgotten the orc. I am unsure just how balanced an orc is, though.
 

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