Hordes of the Abyss.

GVDammerung said:

Can't say.

But you are in gross error in imagining that what is being considered is "arbitrary interpretations of fluff," the fluff in the case of demon princes goes to very core of the concept of a demon prince. Or do you have your PC encounter "Ten hit dice, that does 1d10 damage per round" etc. I doubt it. You have them encounter a described monster. Why? Because the description, the details of the monster beyond the stats, matter. So too, even more so, with demon princes.

And you again are grossly in error when you assume such is "mostly irrelevant." Again, you have your PCs encounter "15 Hit Dice?" No. You do not, I'll wager. The details are far from irrelevant. Indeed, they help form the basis of much of the appeal of D&D, its mythology. Again, this is particularly true of demon princes, which are not just jumped up monsters, but the pinnacle of evil given form.

The attempt at an antiseptic, clinical "just the rules" approach flounders when considering D&D archetypes like the demon princes. Feats? Okay. PrCs? Maybe. Demon princes?
No way.

Click to expand...

Read the quote again. I was specifically referring to the fluff interpretations taken up in this thread. Not 'fluff' in general, but interpretations of a very narrow generic brand of fluff. Did this book cast a dumb spell on this thread?

Coriat said:

Balor. CR 20 unadvanced. Check your monster manual under 'demon'

In case you are wondering, there are an infinite number of them hanging out in the Abyss.

Click to expand...

And they are more powerful than any of the 'demon lords' presented in the book under discussion? Perhaps >20 would have made the point clearer, but still. Think more.

jasamcarl said:

Read the quote again. I was specifically referring to the fluff interpretations taken up in this thread. Not 'fluff' in general, but interpretations of a very narrow generic brand of fluff. Did this book cast a dumb spell on this thread?

Click to expand...

See post #429. Are you begging to get banned?

GVDammerung said:

NB EM- I know you didn't write the section Erik, you were a convenient example of the principle, however. What drew you to the demons way back when was, I suspect, the mythology, the back story, not the mechanics, illustrating the point of how the mythology matters and forms part of D&D's appeal, at least as much as the rules themselves, IMO. Unless of course, you love stat blocks, which from your moaning about doing the deific stats in that FR book you cowrote, I doubt.

Click to expand...

And you are absolutely right, of course.

--Erik

GVDammerung said:

Practically speaking, from what I am understanding, something very like this is how I intend to handle the situation - the stats will represent a proportional manefestation of the demon prince in question. I've been playing since OD&D so improvising around or in lieu of "official" rulings is no big thing.

Click to expand...

And this is almost identical for me. But...

GVDammerung said:

That's really not wherein the issue lies for me, as I can kluge till the cows come home, but rather in how the mythology is impacted. Post-Hordes, when discussing the demon princes, there will now likely be an inevitable wrangle over the place of the demon lords in the grand scheme of things given their revised stat blocks and no "official" explaination for the change. To those of us interested in those aspects of D&D where such things matter, or in the mythology more generally, a can of worms has been opened. To those so interested, this is very like a new class, feat or PrC being "unbalanced" is to those obsessed about those sorts things. A question then of whose ox, PrC or mythology is being gored. By no means does the demon prince CR issue "ruin" the book but it does take something of the bud off the rose as the demon princes are a big part of things.

Click to expand...

I only half agree with you here. I do not feel as if the revised stat blocks reflect a demon lord's place in the grand scheme of things. Stat blocks don't accurately represent (for me) other intangible aspects to rulership: politics, history, your deeds, your allegiances. How does a CR20 balor know what the CR of a demon lord is? I am sure that I will be given some argument or explanation as to how this meta game information become known, but seriously, unless Hordes is dismissing all the history played out in 1e, 2e, 3e canon how can a Balor in is right mind not perceive a higher CR for his demon lord ruler? History, politics, deeds, allegiances. This is where fluff becomes pseudo-crunch (without all the crunchy sound). It just doesn't have any game mechanical associations, but it most certainly has viability in game.

I am not that learned in the timelines, but I am sure that Shemmy or Boz or any number of Enworlders can give numerous examples of events in demon-lore where a Demon Prince did something that would scare the bejeezuz out of a balor enoght that they never try to band together to overthrow him. How's that for a run-on sentence.

catsclaw227 said:

How does a CR20 balor know what the CR of a demon lord is?

Click to expand...

"The Emperor Has No Clothes" is not a good way to run the Abyss. I suspect one of his minions would eventually notice that he's the only one of them that never casually gets into fights with his inferiors, that he backs down in situations where any other demon would have arrogantly shown his muscle.

A horde of demons is like a wolf pack, every member constantly weighing the others, subtly testing their strength as they strive for dominance. There are many ways to do this without immediate danger to oneself.

Look at human children for a good example: they constantly test authority figures, misbehaving just a little bit until they learn what the boundaries are. Demons are much the same way, showing more and more unruliness, just enough to get smacked down but not enough to be worth killing.

But the Fraud King of the Abyss never smacks his greatest minions down. He can't, because he might not win. He can't order his other minions to do it for him either - they wouldn't respect him. That's not what demons do. They rule by strength, and relying on the strength of others is a sign of weakness.

So they test him, more and more. Soon they start disobeying commands outright. Then, when still there is no punishment forthcoming, they start smacking him around.

A hush falls over the assembled court. Everyone moves aside to watch the fight ensue, leaving the floor open to their ruler and his challenger. The monarch can't back down now. So they fight. Maybe one wins, maybe the other does. They're more or less of equal power, after all.

And now, one way or another, everyone who watched knows exactly how tough their monarch is. They know the challenger's strength; it was a powerful servant in the court, and it got there by showing its dominance, constantly smacking around those around it. Everyone knows how tough the challenger was, and by comparison they know their monarch's strength.

So even if the demon monarch won the challenge, he lost. The curtains fell from the Great Oz. The monarch wasn't some all-powerful godlike figure at all, but a mere mortal like themselves. They saw him bleed. They saw him pant in exhaustion toward the end of the fight. They saw how close he came to death.

More challenges come. And more. Demons come from outside the realm, attracted to the scent of weakness, of opportunity.

Eventually, the monarch falls. Probably sooner rather than later.

I hope that your argument was meant to address my WHOLE post and not just a single line.

But taking my entire argument into consideration, this is exactly what I was stating. That other non-statistical meta-game elements have kept the lesser demons in check all these many many millenia. If you can find instances in D&D canon where a known demon prince identified and codified by an official source has been overthrown by a lessor typed demon in the manner described above, then I will concede.

I just haven't seen it yet.

Chapter 3: Demon Lords

(There’s about 3/4 page of text before the actual description/stats of the lords begin.)

“The most powerful demons are the demon lords. These individuals are unique demons that can command entire layers of the Abyss and function almost as deities. They can project physical manifestations onto the Astral Plane, and form there infiltrate other planes without placing themselves in danger of being slain. -snip-

Fighting Demon Lords
-snip-
These high Challenge Ratings are based on the demon lords’ abilities and also supported by couple of assumptions:
(1) Characters are most likely to face a demon lords on its home layers of the Abyss.-snip-
(2) A demon lords should never be encountered alone. -snip-

Demon Lord Aspects
-snip-
Sample demon lord aspects are presented in the FC1: HotA web enhancement on the WotC website.”

Making Epic Demon Lords
(I don’t feel like writing out these words for words, but I will try not to leave out anything.)
* Advance lord’s HD by an amount appropriate for your campaign’s needs. The lord BAB, saves, skills, feats, ability scores should increase as an Outsider.
* CR increase by 1 for every HD added.
* Add “epic” to DR requirement.
* New SR = CR+13
* Ability scores all increase 2 for every 5HD added.
* Gain Spell-like abilities (at will): Blasphemy (or Word of Chaos for obyrith.), Plane Shift, Shapechange, Unholy Aura. Feel free to add more, but remember not to over do it.
* Increase Caster level for Spell-like abilities by 1 for every 2 HD added. Remember this can overpower certain abilities.
* Feel free to add one or two new special actions or special qualities. eg.) Fraz-Urb’luu might gain Mordenkainen’s Disjunction by touch. Kostchtchie might gain a Cold breath weapon.

Mouseferatu said:

B: Kiaransalee hasn't been statted for 3E. Who's to say how much power she has now? She could be a fairly week demigod under the current system for all we know.

Click to expand...

She was statted in City of the Spider Queen web enhancement IIRC.