Is this fair? -- your personal opinion
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Raven Crowking
First Post
Ridley's Cohort said:
IF you accept the assumptions are true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is unfair.
IF you do not accept that the assumptions are all true, but do not aver that the assumptions are false, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap may or may not be fair, and that more information is required to make a statement that the trap is fair or unfair.
IF you believe that one or more of the assumptions is not true, THEN the logical conclusion is that the trap is fair.
The assumptions in question are:
(1) The DM has introduced a trap that he knows the PCs cannot detect with Search.
(2) That the trap will kill any PC who activates it unless they roll a 20 on a saving throw.
(3) That the DM has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous.
Do we agree on this much?
RC
ThirdWizard
First Post
Lanefan said:
I agree, with one caveat.
The importance of how often the lever is used is going to depend on the dungeon in which it is found. If this is an ancient crypt full of incorporeal undead, then lack of use will mean nothing, but if it is a well kept lair that is currently used by some group then lack of use might be an important clue.
In either case, the Search check would reveal its lack of use. It didn't. Perhaps this is merely an oversight on the case of the OP however.
Abraxas
Explorer
Of course in a number of those old adventures there were also random levers (among other things) that rewarded the PC that monkeyed with them.Lanefan said:You need to play through some old modules - A1-A4, Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Lost Temple of Tharizdun, Quest for the Heartstone, White Plume Mtn. - and learn that yes indeed, death *does* wait in the most unlikely of places and for the most unlikely of reasons...and just get used to it.
The lever trap sounds like it could easily have come from any of those adventures, though I suspect that in fact it did not.
Someone
Adventurer
RC, I don´t know to whom are you responding, because your posts are becoming increasigly bizarre and ceratinly have little to do with my posts. I´ll keep som pearls, however:
Of course not, and I´m quite surprised you even wrote that. If you can definitely conclude anything you don´t need the Razor, but those rare circumstances are usually related with the world of mathematics. Occam´s Razor usually works in the normal life, however, and we use it lots of times every day.
Of course not, and I´m quite surprised you even wrote that. If you can definitely conclude anything you don´t need the Razor, but those rare circumstances are usually related with the world of mathematics. Occam´s Razor usually works in the normal life, however, and we use it lots of times every day.
Raven Crowking
First Post
ThirdWizard said:
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source new!
hint /hɪnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hint] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an indirect, covert, or helpful suggestion; clue: Give me a hint as to his identity.
2. a very slight or hardly noticeable amount; soupçon: a hint of garlic in the salad dressing.
3. perceived indication or suggestion; note; intimation: a hint of spring in the air.
4. Obsolete. an occasion or opportunity.
–verb (used with object) 5. to give a hint of: gray skies hinting a possible snowfall.
–verb (used without object) 6. to make indirect suggestion or allusion; subtly imply (usually fol. by at): The article hinted at corruption in the mayor's office.
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[Origin: 1595–1605; (n.) orig., opportunity, occasion, appar. var. of obs. hent grasp, act of seizing, deriv. of the v.: to grasp, take, ME henten, OE hentan; (v.) deriv. of the n.]
—Related forms
hinter, noun
—Synonyms 1. allusion, insinuation, innuendo; memorandum, reminder; inkling. 5. imply. Hint, intimate, insinuate, suggest denote the conveying of an idea to the mind indirectly or without full or explicit statement. To hint is to convey an idea covertly or indirectly, but intelligibly: to hint that one would like a certain present; to hint that bits of gossip might be true. To intimate is to give a barely perceptible hint, often with the purpose of influencing action: to intimate that something may be possible. To insinuate is to hint artfully, often at what one would not dare to say directly: to insinuate something against someone's reputation. Suggest denotes particularly recalling something to the mind or starting a new train of thought by means of association of ideas: The name doesn't suggest anything to me.
—Antonyms 5. express, declare.
hint /hɪnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hint] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. an indirect, covert, or helpful suggestion; clue: Give me a hint as to his identity.
2. a very slight or hardly noticeable amount; soupçon: a hint of garlic in the salad dressing.
3. perceived indication or suggestion; note; intimation: a hint of spring in the air.
4. Obsolete. an occasion or opportunity.
–verb (used with object) 5. to give a hint of: gray skies hinting a possible snowfall.
–verb (used without object) 6. to make indirect suggestion or allusion; subtly imply (usually fol. by at): The article hinted at corruption in the mayor's office.
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[Origin: 1595–1605; (n.) orig., opportunity, occasion, appar. var. of obs. hent grasp, act of seizing, deriv. of the v.: to grasp, take, ME henten, OE hentan; (v.) deriv. of the n.]
—Related forms
hinter, noun
—Synonyms 1. allusion, insinuation, innuendo; memorandum, reminder; inkling. 5. imply. Hint, intimate, insinuate, suggest denote the conveying of an idea to the mind indirectly or without full or explicit statement. To hint is to convey an idea covertly or indirectly, but intelligibly: to hint that one would like a certain present; to hint that bits of gossip might be true. To intimate is to give a barely perceptible hint, often with the purpose of influencing action: to intimate that something may be possible. To insinuate is to hint artfully, often at what one would not dare to say directly: to insinuate something against someone's reputation. Suggest denotes particularly recalling something to the mind or starting a new train of thought by means of association of ideas: The name doesn't suggest anything to me.
—Antonyms 5. express, declare.
I suggest that you are using definition (1) and I am using definition (3), above.
When I examine the assumption, (3) That the DM has given no hints to the PCs that it is dangerous I am assuming that, if enough intimation exists that the PCs know or should reasonably have known that something is dangerous, perforce this knowledge arises out of "hints".
For example, a bridge over a river "hints" that the river can be crossed. Nothing else is required, because the meaning of the term "bridge" is fairly universal. The implications inherent in an object can be hints. Indeed, all the hints you mentioned are based on the implications inherent in objects. Well, except the warning written in orcish.
Likewise, that a pulling a lever inherently causes something to happen is more than just an inference gained through isolated and special circumstances -- it is inherent in the meaning of the object itself.
RC
Raven Crowking
First Post
Someone said:
More argumentum ad hominem?
ThirdWizard
First Post
Raven Crowking said:
There's about as much indication that a PC will die pulling the lever as walking over a bridge, though.
Raven Crowking
First Post
ThirdWizard said:
Would you agree with Post 572?
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3040113&postcount=572
ThirdWizard
First Post
Raven Crowking said:
I do.
EDIT: Although I would worry about the saving throw, depending on the abilty of the rogue to disarm it. Most Search checks are the same as the Disarm check, correct? If the rogue will probably kill himself trying to disarm it, that would be an extraneous circumstance in which I would probably call it "unfair."
