Ye olde classic unarmed strike/natural weapon question.

Here's the "rule:"

FAQ said:

Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed (plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).

The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5 penalty for secondary natural attacks. An 4th-level centaur monk has a base attack bonus of +7 (+4 from his 4 monstrous humanoid Hit Dice, and +3 from his 8 monk levels). If he performs a flurry of blows, he makes three unarmed strikes, at +5/+5/+0. He can add two hoof attacks at –2/–2 (–5 as secondary weapons, and –2 from the flurry)

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BTW, glass, comments like "Many here (including myself) don't consider the FAQ to be worth the (virtual) paper it is printed on." are not particularly helpful. The FAQ may be followed or not, certainly, but it is the only source for official rules interpretations, even if some do turn out to be a bit... wonky.

Such comments are almost as helpful as saying the PHB or DMG is not worth the paper they are printed on because they contain oddities.

If you want to comment on my comment, which I welcome, please quote me and start a new discusssion for it, okay? Let's not derail this one; that's hardly fair to the orignal poster.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

... which is, frankly, ridiculous and disallowed by the PHB.

Otherwise, they'd have to rule that I can make a Whirlwind Attack, and then use my Cleave and TWF bonus attacks in addition to the WWA. Does anyone allow that?

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Although I tend to agree that any attacks in addition to the flurry seems a bit off to me, I will point out that:

1. Whirlwind attack specifically states "...you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

2. Flurry has no such statement.

3. A monk simply gets one addional attack in a flurrry - nothing more, nothing less.

4. It is not unreasonable to allow a creature who can make a full attack routine with weapons and also get natural attacks to substitute the a flurry of blows for the manufactured weapon attacks. It's far from clear that this was originally intended, but reasonable, and do the FAQ entry is legitimate.

5. I do not think a monk should get off-hand weapon attacks when using flurry, but, again, that is not quite actually prohibited by the rules as written, so allowing it is okay, even if it seems somehow... wrong. Still the FAQ entry on this indicates WotC's position is that it is allowed, and that is a legitimate rules interpretation - but not one I would have come up with!

("A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry.")

Artoomis said:

Although I tend to agree that any attacks in addition to the flurry seems a bit off to me, I will point out that:

... 2. Flurry has no such statement.

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No, it just says: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

To me, IMHO, etc., that's exactly the same thing.

("A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
monk weapons as part of the flurry.")

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And that's one of the things that gets me. In that question, they take the time to remind us of the FoB rules, only to contradict it several (?) questions later.

Arrgh!

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

... which is, frankly, ridiculous

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It is no more ridiculous than allowing someone to use secondary natural attacks in the same round as they're getting multiple attacks from a high BAB with unarmed strikes and/or using two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

and disallowed by the PHB.

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No it's not.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

Otherwise, they'd have to rule that I can make a Whirlwind Attack, and then use my Cleave and TWF bonus attacks in addition to the WWA. Does anyone allow that?

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No, because the feat specifically states that you must give up your regular attacks (the attacks you could have made had you not chosen to use the feat) and it is quite clear from the context that extra attacks granted by other feats and abilities are lost for the round. (They even use cleave as an example...)

Even if it wasn't that would simply mean that Whirlwind Attack was in need of clarification. It would prove nothing.

I take it you believe that we HAVE TO rule that anyone using a spiked chain will get a +2 bonus on all disarm attempts made in the round, even with different weapons (such as secondary natural attacks)? After all: "When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails)."

And we HAVE TO rule that you don't get iterative attacks from a high BAB if you make secondary natural attacks? After all: "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons".

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

No, it just says: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

To me, IMHO, etc., that's exactly the same thing.

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To me, however, it's not. I read that statement as saying that the monk may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons within that flurry of blows. If the monk has other opportunities to attack outside of it, such as with some form of natural weapon, there's no restriction on using it. The key difference in understanding being that for those other attack options, the character isn't using the flurry of blows.

Patryn of Elvenshae said:

No, it just says: "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

To me, IMHO, etc., that's exactly the same thing....Arrgh!

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I understand you reading that into it, but its not there.

It says, "When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with..." not, "you give up all other additional attacks you may get for other sources" - or any language like that.

Very different from Whirwind Attack. For example, a Whirlwind attack gains no extra attack from Haste, while a Flurry most certainly does.

Still, I tend to think that while not specifically prohibited, no off-hand attacks were originally intended to be used with Flurry.

Allowing the use of natural weapons in addition to the Flurry seems perfectly analogous to striking with manufactured weapons, so, I have less heartburn with that.

Iku Rex said:

No, it doesn't. However, the FAQ does say that you can use secondary natural attacks in addition to a flurry. Which is not disallowed by the PHB. (And allowed by the rules for mixing manufactured and natural weapons.)

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Sure you can, on the next round when you have an action again. But I guess that wasn't what they meant. Nothing in the rules on combining manufactured and natural weapons allows you two full attacks in the same round.

And damnit, I really wasn't going to argue about this yet again. I need to improve my will save!


glass.

LordVyreth said:

What's the official ruling on how monks can use natural attacks? Are they completely incompatible with the unarmed strike damage and flurry of blows, or can some of them officially be used as secondary attacks? What's the official ruling, and have you done it at all differently?

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Nimbly dodging the rules debate above (which has been hashed out here numerous times... just do a search...) I will address your two questions pointedly;
1. The "official ruling" is that they *can* be used together, with the natural attacks as secondary attacks after the flurry, as long as all penalties apply to all the attacks. Klaus summed it up above. Whether your GM accepts the FAQ as "official" is another question..!

2. As to 'how to do it', it seems evenly divided between folks allowing it or not. If you do allow it, certainly apply all penalties to each attack as described in the FAQ, or it would be unbalancing. In our game we have followed the FAQ, and it seems very balanced. The extra attacks are at least offset by the frequent misses, especially with a Monk's craptastic BAB.

Artoomis said:

BTW, glass, comments like "Many here (including myself) don't consider the FAQ to be worth the (virtual) paper it is printed on." are not particularly helpful. The FAQ may be followed or not, certainly, but it is the only source for official rules interpretations, even if some do turn out to be a bit... wonky.

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On the contrary, it is extremely helpfull. People are of course free to give the FAQ as much or as little weight as they wish, but I like to ensure that they do so with their eyes open.

An old hand on these boards like you or I know how the FAQ is regarded, but I am guessing from the question that the original poster is not an old hand.


glass.

glass said:

Sure you can, on the next round when you have an action again. But I guess that wasn't what they meant. Nothing in the rules on combining manufactured and natural weapons allows you two full attacks in the same round.

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Why would you wait a round? You must use a full attack action to gain iterative attacks from a high BAB. Can you make secondary natural attacks in a round where you make iterative attacks from a high BAB? Why wouldn't that require two full attacks?