D&D 3E/3.5 Will 4E combat actually run slowly...slower than 3E?

I have two major concerns about 4E design. I realize this is all speculation but here goes

1. With the addition of all the new time segments....will the game actually run smoothly? We have quick, immediate, free, standard, etc. This seems to be a more complicating and reminds me of the old 1E segments. I thought this was an annoying expansion from the splatbooks which didn't need to be incorporated.

2. Now that the other classes have what I will refer to as "special maneuvers", will we have to sit around the table waiting for the fighter to pick his attack maneuver much like the wizard of old had to sit around and pick his spells?

broghammerj said:

I have two major concerns about 4E design. I realize this is all speculation but here goes

1. With the addition of all the new time segments....will the game actually run smoothly? We have quick, immediate, free, standard, etc. This seems to be a more complicating and reminds me of the old 1E segments. I thought this was an annoying expansion from the splatbooks which didn't need to be incorporated.

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I never had a problem with new time methods like that. It's not weapons speeds.

2. Now that the other classes have what I will refer to as "special maneuvers", will we have to sit around the table waiting for the fighter to pick his attack maneuver much like the wizard of old had to sit around and pick his spells?

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The wizard should be picking their spells between their turns, not on their turn. New players often make this mistake because they're not yet proficient in combat/tactical spellcasting.

broghammerj said:

I have two major concerns about 4E design. I realize this is all speculation but here goes

1. With the addition of all the new time segments....will the game actually run smoothly? We have quick, immediate, free, standard, etc. This seems to be a more complicating and reminds me of the old 1E segments. I thought this was an annoying expansion from the splatbooks which didn't need to be incorporated.

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I thought that too. It doesn't sound any simpler or faster; just different.

broghammerj said:

2. Now that the other classes have what I will refer to as "special maneuvers", will we have to sit around the table waiting for the fighter to pick his attack maneuver much like the wizard of old had to sit around and pick his spells?

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That probably won't be so bad, since feats/maneuvers will never be as numerous as spells.

What I'm worried about is that every class could have abilities to buff allies. Then it wouldn't just be the cleric's spells and the bard's song, but a fighter's maneuvers and whatever else. It's the same problem as 3e where there are a hundred +1s to keep track of.

If the "dragon fight" column is any indication, the numbers in 4E will be even more ridiculous than in 3E. A thousand hit points for a dragon? When we're dealing with numbers like one thousand, that looks to be an indication that modifiers are going to be numerous and crazy.

Maybe that's an artifact of "core Epic" rules. Like if I designed a tabletop wargame system for boxing matches, and my rules accomodate boxers ranging all the way from the American dust mite to the Death Star. Obviously most dust mites have no chance of getting a TKO on the Death Star, but the rules handle any matchup and they're all within what I'm calling "the sweet spot". It is the "sweet science" after all.

Wizards should not have presented the fight with the dragon as their first example of a combat round.

Given the article about the dragon, it was an Epic Fight. In 4e, levels go to 30, and an Ancient Dragon is likely a CR 27 or so. Yes it was involved - because it was a "Boss fight of epic proportions".

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

The wizard should be picking their spells between their turns, not on their turn. New players often make this mistake because they're not yet proficient in combat/tactical spellcasting.

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I have a feeling with the reduction of the "Vancian" aspect of spell-casting, wizards will be more comfortable using magical abilities without excruciating planning because they won't "lose" it until re-memorized. That is, a wizard won't be in such fear that he is about to use a spell at the "wrong" time.

I think this kind of resource management will also inform the way other classes make their "maneuver" choices or whatever is available to them. It may be "x times per encounter" instead of "x times per day" allowing the player more freedom to use his character's abilities without making that tough, time-consuming decision to save or use any given ability during an encounter.

Honestly, the simplification(for DM prep), streamlining and speeding up of combat are the main selling points for a 4th ed. for me. And I too have concerns as of right now. The fact of the matter is that I haven't seen anything that points to 4th ed. heading in this direction. Perhaps someone should start a thread where they list examples or tidbits that actually show that some type of streamlining is taking place, because I'm not getting that impression at all so far.

Of course I'm also getting a weird vibe, like the system is way less developed than I would have expected this late in the game. The playtesters are houseruling races, classes, etc. while supposedly playtesting the system, it all seems purposefully vague for something they've been working on since 2005, and I'm definitely not getting any type of overall picture, of how anything fits together, how design goals are being approached, or even of what the driving design goals are.

I can't say 4E fights are any shorter than 3.5's. However, that's with at least four more monsters on the table and the interesting decisions spread out more among players (and less rules lookup). The DM's turns go more quickly since there's less chaff in the monster stats.

Hey Logan. Is there a place that we can basically submit questions to be answered by you guys?

broghammerj said:

1. With the addition of all the new time segments....will the game actually run smoothly? We have quick, immediate, free, standard, etc.

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These have been around about four years. While I agree that there's too many types -- I would just subdivide a round into segments and declare how many segments each action takes up -- it hasn't caused any real problems.

2. Now that the other classes have what I will refer to as "special maneuvers", will we have to sit around the table waiting for the fighter to pick his attack maneuver much like the wizard of old had to sit around and pick his spells?

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I would hope both players would be familiar with their character sheets before sitting down to play.