Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

drnuncheon said:

Also, I'd like to change my vote, because I wouldn't let Cedric in the game with a steed named "Bob".

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*runs to Bob and covers his ear and a half*

Aw, come on - could you think of a steed which might be more appropriate for Cedric than Bob? Although I did consider a dyspeptic dromedary called Monique too.

Sigil said:

shilsen - "a hit, a palpable hit" - great line! I know it's not much, and certainly doesn't "turn the discussion" in any fashion, but it encourages me that this whole discussion has been done civilly and with enough sense of humor that some really deep and important issues have been plumbed and thoughts examined without things going ugly.

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Sure. One of my intentions with the thread was to get people to consider atypical takes on the paladin without it getting acrimonious, as such threads seem invariably seem to do. And I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion, especially where posts such as yours make me evaluate and re-evaluate my own positions.

Dr. Nuncheon - Nearly fell off my chair laughing at your "I'd like to change my vote based on the horse being named 'Bob' line." Please come over to clean up the water I spit all over my monitor at your earliest convenience.

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Bastard

If I may speak for Bob here - If you summon us from our celestial realms, are we not special steeds?

Some more thoughts of mine upon reading through this thread (and I'm glad it reopened):

It's implied that Cedric gets his abilities from a divine source. And there's two interesting bits of characterization to take note of here: 1) one of the first things Cedric does when we wakes up is to pray and 2) while Cedric himself is described as being unkempt, the holy symbol of his god is described as "polished", which I assume means he takes better care of it than he does of himself. From this it seems that regardless of Cedric's behavior and attitude, he's still obviously devoted to his god. It would also seem that the god isn't bothered by Cedric's activities or attitude, since he still is granted his powers. Also note that it is never mentioned exactly which god Cedric serves.

I'd say that Cedric does come off as a bit arrogant, at least in his reply to Magnus. Maybe he's just sick of constantly defendign himself. Who knows?

Cedric is a bit cynical, or perhaps I'd say more realistic (but then I'm a cynic myself ). He knows he likely will get killed somewhere along the line. Where some paladins are overconfident in their faith, he's a bit smarter. Just because you're relying on the power of faith doesn't mean you won't face an opponent who isn't empowered by an evil faith which is just as strong or stronger as yours. Hence the moral of Sir Bodel. After all, paladins are on the front lines in the conflict of good and evil. But in the end Cedric will still fight because he believes it's the right thing to do, even if he loses. Perhaps this willingness to sacrifice his life in the name of good even if it ends up being meaningless impresses Cedric's god more than the faith of a paladin who blindly believes that good will always triumph over evil. After all, the blind paladin doesn't feel he has anything to lose, while Cedric is openly chosing to sacrifice himself. After all, with his view of things, he could just say, "Screw it, let someone else do this," but he isn't.

Even if he's not fighting demons, maybe just some evil warlord, he knows over the long run it doesn't make a difference. Why? I don't see it as simple pessimism, but as taking the long view. You defeat an evil warlord, you create a power vacuum. Who's to say some worse bastard won't come along to take the last one's place? He doesn't have a rose-colored view on his actions, seeing it as "I kill the bad guy and everyone lives happily ever after." Maybe it's more like being smart enough to know that his actions have consequences.

Finally there's the whole consorting with prostitutes angle. He's using his powers to help them out. A lot of people, like Magnus, would just turn their noses up at the girls see them as nothing more than filthy whores and turn their backs on them. Cedric doesn't do that. He's healing them, protecting them, and so on. And he's doing some good here too; many people l(like Magnus), either don't give a damn what happens to the whores or look down on them. Perhaps this goes against the spirit of the teachings of the god Cedric serves, and he still gets his powers because he serves those in need without judging them.

Woo! One monitor and a chance at a bruised tailbone. I'm in the zone.

More seriously, I have never been able to take a Bob seriously after "Bob the Cleric", the NPC band-aid for a pubescent, spike-laden barbarian, a halfling ranger with a three-legged riding dog, and a chunky elven sorceress.

Everything else about Cedric could fit into a serious game, except for calling his steed "Bob" - and I think this character is interesting enough that I'd want him in a serious game.

In fact, he raises all kinds of great plot points - which is the best reason for allowing him in the game. Why isn't Cedric stripped of his paladinhood? What are the church elders hiding?

J

Unfortunately, I had to vote no . . .

. . . but only because I'm with hong on this one.

hong said:

See, if you banned paladins, you'd be able to play all sorts of cool white-hat character concepts -- like the one that Shilsen posted that started this thread -- without getting bogged down in stupid arguments over whether it's class X or class Y.

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I don't allow them in games where I am DM. Never cared for the class much, in any iteration of the game. I don't mind if other people play them in a game where I am also a player (I'm actually in a game now with someone playing a paladin), but as a DM, I find them really irritating. It may be that I've seen too many played from the "immovable absolutist" perspective, and that grates on my DM sensibilities (which may be why I should stop being a DM for D&D ).

That said, I think the character sounds great, and his cynicism aside, he sounds like he'd be fun to go drinking with sometime.

Brennan Magalus said:

A paladin is based on . . . the historical Templars and Hospitallers (and perhaps Joan of Arc), none of whom would go a-whoring.

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Don't know about Joan of Arc, but as to the Templars/Hospitalers, well, I think you and I are reading different history books. The ideal for Templars/Hospitalers might have included absolute chastity and refusal to patronize prostitutes, but I think a lot of those dudes must've slept through Chaste Behavior and Not Consorting with Courtezans 101 in knight school. However, your observation that paladins are based on literary figures like Galahad (the Chaste), is very accurate, I think, and that's probably where much of the paladin characterization in D&D comes from.

Incidentally, for another good perspective on the paladin that really tries to live up to the codes and ideals of his faith, but is having an awfully hard time doing so (and no, it's not all his fault), check out Sepulchrave II's story hour and spend some time getting to know Eadric of Deorham.

OK, fine, I admit it, there is a paladin I like.

Well, tolerate, anyway.

But I still think Mostin and Nwm are better.

Thanks,

Warrior Poet

No.

In fact, based on some of his statements to Magnus, verging on evil.

Yep, Evil. He is counseling despair. He is stating that evil can not be defeated. He is advocating the death of hope and the lack of a bright future. Its not to far from Cedric actually lost to his previous demon-opponent, and was replaced by a servant of darkness, whose goal is drag down as many of Cedric's fellow paladins as possible.

And whats up with the story of the quad. paladin? No clerics with regenerate? No Heal? No magic items which allow use of mage hand a few times a day so he can care for himself? Give the quad an animated sword, strap a shield to him, and srap him to his horse, and he'll still be out there, fighting demons. THAT is a true Paladin. One who never gives up. Never says that battle can not be won. And even if there is not sufficient magic for an animated item or a regenerate, etc. - The paladin still rides around town a few times a week to cure disease, and lay on hands. And his appearance is always met by a hushed silence, as the townsfolk nod in respect to this crippled, ruined figure, who still holds his head up high, who still believes, who still inspires. THAT is something Mr. Doom and gloom, boo-hoo we can't make a difference Cedric will never do. As written, his is (in my opinion) not a Paladin. Cedric has given up hope. He still fights, but Mere Fighting is Not Enough! To fight for a cause, for a better future, THAT is what makes the difference between a soldier and a Paladin.

Cedric's lack of faith in the future, lack of hope, failure to believe in his fellow humanity, that is why his is not a Paladin, IMHO. To me, a Paladin exists to not just battle evil but to inspire others to do the same. And Cedric's message of hopelessness will have the opposite affect.

Now, all of that said, as Shilsen writes more, and reveals a bit more about the character, the character becomes closer to a paladin. But it is still missing that spark, that belief in a greater good, that at the end of the day Good will triumph. With out that hope, I do not believe a character could be a Paladin.

Paladin inspirations: Deed of Paksennarrion, Legend of Huma, The War Gods Own & Oath of Swords

Zog said:

Yep, Evil. He is counseling despair.

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But he's not. If he were counseling despair, why would he bother to keep fighting? What's the point? Why keep living, keep fighting, etc? Something in him must not have given up, because no matter how much he complains, he still goes and does it.

And whats up with the story of the quad. paladin? No clerics with regenerate? No Heal? No magic items which allow use of mage hand a few times a day so he can care for himself?

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Believe it or not, some people do play in low-magic games where such things are not commonplace.

Give the quad an animated sword, strap a shield to him, and srap him to his horse, and he'll still be out there, fighting demons.

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Well, for 4 rounds, when the 'dancing' stops.

The paladin still rides around town a few times a week to cure disease, and lay on hands. And his appearance is always met by a hushed silence, as the townsfolk nod in respect to this crippled, ruined figure, who still holds his head up high, who still believes, who still inspires.

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Maybe he wants to, and the church doesn't want people thinking "look what happens if you fight for good - you wind up a ball of meat."

Anyway, there's a saying - "scratch a cynic and you find a disappointed idealist". I suspect that somewhere in Cedric, that idealist is still there, and that's what keeps him from really despairing. But he's been battered around by the world enough that it's hard to see.

But clearly, he thinks that one man makes a difference, because he still goes out and fights. Even if he thinks that that difference is keeping the world from falling into blackness for one more day, that's still one more day - and so he fights.

That's why he's such a fascinating character. Unlike other paladins who are miles away, he's ridden right up to the edge of the chasm and looked in. He's riding along the edge, and he doesn't fall. The question of "will he?" makes watching him a heck of a lot more exciting than some shiny fanatic who never has doubts or flaws.

J

Zog said:

Give the quad an animated sword, strap a shield to him, and srap him to his horse, and he'll still be out there, fighting demons. THAT is a true Paladin.

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"I didn't play D&D for all those years and not learn a little something about courage" --Frohicke (I think...), The X-Files

Mallus said:

"I didn't play D&D for all those years and not learn a little something about courage" --Frohicke (I think...), The X-Files

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It was some random kid who had supposedly seen a UFO. Scully <pant, pant> was interviewing the kid about it and she asked if he was scared. His response was as you noted. The episode is "Jose Chung's From Outer Space," which also spawned the great goofy character name "Lord Kinbote."

I'm laughing now just thinking about it.

Warrior Poet

Warrior Poet said:

It was some random kid who had supposedly seen a UFO. Scully <pant, pant> was interviewing the kid about it and she asked if he was scared. His response was as you noted. The episode is "Jose Chung's From Outer Space," which also spawned the great goofy character name "Lord Kinbote."

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Damn, how'd I forget that... that's my favorite episode... but all I can remember quote-wise is "I said he looked like Alex Trebek."

The Jose Chung episode of Millenium that smears Scientology and Deepak Chopra, "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense" is pretty great, too.

Oh, I swear that "Lord Kinbote" is a nod to Vladimir Nabakov's Pale Fire, which is narrated (err, after a fashion, 'annotated' would work better...), uber-unreliably, by a professor Charles Kinbote. Pale Fire plays with the idea of 'what's the true stroy and who's story is it to tell'?

And here's another bit on Cedric. Same caveats as before, of course

Through the eyes of others, pt.3

Shikuna asked, "So the messages have all been sent out?"

"Yes, Father," said Magnus. "I doubt, however, that any of them will be delivered - and answered - before tomorrow at the earliest."

The old priest sighed and said, "That, alas, we cannot do anything about. But you have done well. Go and rest now."

The younger man turned towards the door, and then hesitated, as Shikuna had known he would. Magnus turned back and said, a little diffidently, "Pardon me, Father, but if you would allow it - I have a question..."

"About Cedric," completed Shikuna.

Magnus reddened, but continued. "Yes, Father."

"Sit down," said the old man, thinking inwardly, This will take a while, but better now than later. Once Magnus had taken a seat, Shikuna leaned forward and said, "Something bothers you. Tell me what it is."

Magnus cast about for a way to begin and then burst out, "Everything! You sent me to deliver a message to someone who I'd always been told was a hero, an icon of the Order! And I find a ... a ..."

"...foul-mouthed drunkard and lecher?" finished Shikuna.

"YES!!" Magnus was almost shouting in his confusion. "How ... I mean ... why does the Order allow this... blasphemy?!" Realizing a little too late how loud he was, Magnus came to a halt.

Shikuna waited while the excited youth took a deep breath to calm himself, and then said quietly, "You think we should strip Cedric of his paladinhood? Even though the choosing is done by the High Lord himself?"

Magnus stared for moment, before saying, a little lamely, "No, I did not mean ... well ... but he is breaking every tenet of the Order. Isn't he?"

You were right, Cedric, thought Shikuna. You will only show them, but I will have to do the teaching. "Well, let's see now," he said. "What do the Tenets say about alcohol?"

Magnus recited like a schoolboy, "Thou shalt not allow alcohol to impair thy judgement."

"Good. Did Cedric seem like his judgement and capability was impaired?"

"Well, no. But what about..."

"And what do the Tenets say about visiting prostitutes?"

"Huh?" There was a pause, and then Magnus said a little more slowly, "Well, they do not mention it...."

"And what about swearing? Remember a Tenet about it?" pushed Shikuna.

"No-oo," said Magnus, even more slowly than before. He paused for a moment, evidently thinking very quickly. "But no priest of the Order that I have met actually does..."

"...any of that. True. Perhaps later you can take time to think about why that is so. But for now, you think that it is wrong for a paladin to do so?"

"Yes!"

"Very well. Tell me, warrior of the Order, what is a paladin?"

Again, as if repeating a catechism, Magnus recited, "A paladin is the greatest servant of the High Lord. The compassion to pursue good, the will to uphold law, and the power to defeat evil - these are the weapons of the paladin. The paladin is the upholder of the Code. The paladin stands on the edge, between the light and the darkness, and he does not yield. The paladin sees with the eyes of the spirit, not of the flesh."

"Good," said Shikuna, picking his moment to interrupt. "With what eyes did you see Cedric, Magnus?"

"Huh?" said Magnus, caught off-guard.

"That's all right," said Shikuna, waving a hand. "Now let me tell you a little about paladins. As they say in the tales, once upon a time..."

And Shikuna told Magnus the stories...

... about a young man, full of righteousness and zeal just as Magnus was, who served in the ranks of the Order and rose to the rank of paladin, vowing his life to the service of the High Lord.

... about the man who singlehandedly led a force of peasants to victory over a superior army of monsters, and returned to their village to find it gutted, with everyone in it killed, raped, and eaten.

... about the man who sat alone in a room for three days, without food or water, and who emerged to say that now that he had "had words with the High Lord", now he understood, to cast aside his shining armor and gleaming trappings, to embrace what he said was "the soul and center" of paladinhood and the Order.

... about the high priest of the Order, who commanded that the Tenets of the High Lord be modified so as to be able to cast out an "inappropriate influence" from the Order, and who awoke the next morning stripped of his clerical powers.

... about the man who singlehandedly slew three blackguards, gave them the last rites, buried them, and wept over their graves, because that is what he might have been.

... about the man who walked and laughed and drank among the hungry and outnumbered soldiers of the Third Army, while the generals slept in their silk tents, before helping them to victory at the Battle of Atin.

... about the man who, when asked what was the most important thing that a paladin should remember, said, "That he is a human being."

... about the man who alternately walked and crawled on a broken leg for three days, carrying a wounded comrade, because he was "too pissed off to meet the High Lord right now."

It was over an hour later when Shikuna paused, more due to hoarseness than anything else. Magnus looked perhaps even more tired than the old man.

"And that was Cedric?" said the young man, hesitantly.

"Yes," said Shikuna. "There is much more I could tell you about him, but I will end with one tale."

And Shikuna told Magnus a tale which had nothing to do with heroism and war, with glory and purity. He told a tale* of Cedric sitting up all night in a peasant hovel with a dying old man, taking away such pain as he could, soothing away his terror, seeing him safely on his way ... and then cleaning him up, laying him out, making him neat for the funeral, helping the weeping widow to strip the bed and wash the sheets, staying with her the whole day and up the next night to watch over the coffin and officiating at the funeral ... and then going home and sitting down for five minutes, before some shouting man comes banging on the door, angry because he doesn't open the door quick enough, complaining that his wife's giving birth to his first child and the midwife's having trouble ... and Cedric smiling at the man and accompanying him without a word.

"That," said Shikuna, "Is the root and heart and soul and center of paladinhood. The soul and the center."

"So," said Magnus quietly, "You think I should do as he does?"

"Hah!" laughed Shikuna explosively. "No," he said, with a smile. "I do not think there is one among us - or among the paladins of the world, whether of our Order or any other - who could do what he does and fail to slip over. Not even you, young Magnus."

Magnus blushed at the comment, but Shikuna went on, almost as if talking to himself. "You were right. The paladin does stand on the edge between light and darkness, but every paladin besides Cedric faces into the light. He looks over the edge into the darkness. Every moment of every day, he watches the dark, and he watches the dark watch him, and he walks the edge between the two. He is one of the few - the very few - whom the High Lord blesses with true sight and understanding, and that is as much of a curse as a gift." The old man's voice was thick with mingled fascination and pity as he finished.

Shikuna shook himself and then leaned over to pat Magnus on the shoulder. "But that is enough for now. You need to go and rest, and so do I. Maybe tomorrow I will tell you some more."

"I would like that," said Magnus as he rose to his feet and made a formal bow to the priest. "Thank you, father - for everything."

"You are always welcome," said Shikuna, and watched as the young man slowly walked out of the room. Hopefully, there goes someone who will never trust only his eyes again.

As he rose slowly to his own feet, he thought, You are right, Cedric - you exist as a lesson to us all. And only the High Lord knows exactly what the lesson is.

* If you think you recognize that section from Terry Pratchett's A Hat Full of Sky, you're right. My little homage to the master.