• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

On the State of Digital Aids for D+D/D20/OGL

iwarrior-poet said:
unfortunately it seems that a lot of developer types are the only ones who read these boards---and they are getting defensive.

I am not one to give up and accept situations when I feel that some encouragement/criticism can help move the process forward.

I hope I didn't sound as if I was defensive because I was not nor am I about this, merely stating my point of view based from someone who has developed several d20 applications and where problems as I see it exist.

iwarrior-poet said:
That is a nice, positive twist---but frankly I don't have the time. I am ready to pay good $$$ for a good program. In most markets (in fact any I can think of) this is sufficient. I shouldn't have to participate more than that.

The same amount of time you spend writing these posts is more then any alpha tester would burn trying to making something better and improve the tools available to the industry. Then figure out the price of software based on a small market and 2 years of development, you will quickly find that no one will be buying the software. I can speak for myself, all of my testers get a free copy of whatever they work on and in most cases get any features they suggest or need (my way of saying thank you). The point is you have determined what is sufficient without really understanding what it takes to provide the service.

To be honest, I was once in your shoes. I voiced my opinion how there was not a single NPC Generator worth using, finally one day I accepted that the only way things were going to change was if I did something about it rather then complain.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

iwarrior-poet said:
That is a nice, positive twist---but frankly I don't have the time. I am ready to pay good $$$ for a good program. In most markets (in fact any I can think of) this is sufficient. I shouldn't have to participate more than that.

I dropped close to $200 in CMP datasets---though I now question whether it was worth it.
For the stuff that you have, it was worth it. You didn't need to manually input those data based on copyrighted books published by WotC, which would have used much of your time and energy. CMP did it for you.

Would you be better off just manually inputing data based on say, the Complete Scoundrel, by yourself?
 

With all the discussion of the needs of the user I though I'd elaborate on what I Want in a tool to help with gaming... these are 10,000 foot statements - and made for discussion as I realize not everyone has the same wants or needs in software.

As a GM or Player I personally am not going to be sitting at my game with a laptop trying to on-the-fly calculate or modify scores - i use paper books for that during a game session and I tend to use tools as between session utilities to manage information, character notes, etc.

I feel the tools need to be modular in nature - allowing users to set a "role" and tailor the interface for that role - so if I'm a player and only care about my character I don't need to see the Campaign Organizations or Monster information, but a DM might need all of those things for session prep. I think the core product would be a Character Generator/Manager - everything else would build on as a module that could be hidden or not even loaded unless needed - so from step one knowing how I want to use the software this session determines the interface I see.

Character Generation and Management: I need a tool that is powerful enough to create a character Inferring the SRD core rules as a base data set. The tool must allow me to easily enter custom data from new source material - for instance I want to be able to take a supported character through the process of leveling without any input other than selecting feats, allocating skill points and calculating class advancement - using core and custom entered information, and updating inventory if needed.

Additionally I want a tool that allows me to make simple expansions to the character options on the fly - so if say at 3rd level my Fighter takes a feat from "Complete Warrior" I can enter relevant information and have it applied to the character sheet. Numerical systems that are affected would show this and the entry tool would allow for "standard" feats that don't alter or institute a new rule system. It would also give me the option to append or add this entered data into the options for future characters as a part of the custom data set.

Similar functional wizards should exist to enter simple classes and class progression and abilities under simple existing systems with text to describe the features - for instance I could then create a Samurai class - with its class abilities and class BAB and Save progressions from the source material. This would also cover the concept of PrCs with no major rule system introductions. (Text descriptions tied to abilities should cover class powers unless it is a permanent bonus)

In the case of spellcasting classes the tool should allow users to define the spell progression, bonus spells, and spell slots or spells per day similar to the Cleric, Sorc or Wiz systems - for instance the Warlock may use Invocations instead of spells but effectively they could be modeled using the original spell class systems - its mostly verbiage.

There also needs to be tools to enter typical data following the spell and item description formats for custom data easily. Entering all the Incantations in from the base Warlock list should be simple as they follow certain formats. Entering new spells - the same. New items and new magic items with numerical effect should be handled in a similar form.

All of these interfaces should be as simple as possible and created using an attractive wrapper to make it feel more like a D&D tool and less like a spreadsheet.

The nature of D&D is evolution- a character tool needs to easily allow standard data input as a part of managing the character - not necessarily as a secondary process. (though in the case of adding new classes, etc there is obviously a lot more work needed before you can create a character.)

The program should allow purchase and equipment of Core items that can calculate weight and apply any "permanent" benefits to the character if wielded/worn/etc.

There should also be simple data forms for character information like sex, race, adventuring notes, contacts, relationships, organizations - etc. But this could be a simple Notepad in the character's entry that I could save or print based on the output choices.

The output ideally should be configurable or use a set of templates to allow for different printed results - NPC/Statblock format, Spellbook only, Character with Detailed Descriptions, etc. (PCGen does a good job at this right now for example)

Campaign Management: My needs and wants for a Campaign management tool are fairly simple - a place to manage session notes and information, to generate encounters and treasure and ideally be able to populate and update the PC character records after a session with items or special information and experience. I'd love a tool to manage things like the "Organizations" format, maybe a place or tools designed to handle town and village or region oriented information.

Additionally this would be a good place to have an NPC/Monster creation tool - with a simple interface that would allow entry of new foes in standard format - i.e. I could type in the latest Dragon entry from Monster Manual 6 and then have it in the custom dataset for later user - incrementally adding exceptions beside the core public creatures or rules. Obviously it makes sens to me to have the PC Generator/Manager linked here - meaning they would share the same data and thus either DM or PC could enter information and it could be used by either role.

For those who use laptops or PCs as GM aids I could see a number of additional tools like Initiative managers, Jump Calculators, treasure generators, etc. but for me I tend to do these things on paper during a game so aside from tools that help me prepare a game I don't have a need of them.

MapMaker: I personally have no need for this. I draw my maps on an erasable battle mat when I use one. Campaign or city maps i also do on paper.
 
Last edited:

Several of you have touched on some of the problems that are faced by anyone wanting software support for D&D.

The guys writing the software are finding that recovering money for their time is quite difficult. People want the software to do everything, but can't afford the pricetag. If you do it for free, there isn't enough time in the day to get everything done.

They guys buying the software are finding that additional custom data is hard to add and keep current. You want to be able to buy the tool and the specific rules that you want, without having to pay for the rules you don't want.

As someone put it earlier. If it was easy, there would be more options out there.
It is HARD. And the Hard work doesn't have a very big payoff at the end.

I purchased several of the tools, was happy to do so and found one I like the best. I have input the rules that I use from other sources and am very happy. I was never looking for a tool that included all of the rules, because I wouldn't know what to turn off.

With all of that said, I want to take a moment to thank any and all programmers, writers, coders, designers, testers, custom data inputters for their hard work and willingness to invest in these labors of love for the rest of us. You are all better men (and women) than I.

Thanks!
 

iwarrior-poet said:
OK...
I believe I was pretty clear about what I would like. Something with an easy/fun UI,
Hmm, well I am a programmer and a gammer. I find the most easy and fun UI to be list files so when I make my program so that you edit all the list files by hand and then run the program to glue them all together that will be an easy fun UI and you should have no complaints about it.

something that is comprehensive (includes CharGen, Campaign Management, Mapping, Encounter Management).
There are thousands of ways to do this. You can have a map centric program which when you click on a section you get the baddies and the goodies that are currently in that section. Of course this means that during play you constantly have to tell the program where the PCs are. You could do campaign based, where the characters are generated first then the challenges are entered, then you place the chalenges on the map. Then you grab a group of characters and a group of baddies and the encounter ensues. So how would you like it done?

I began this thread trying to rattle CONSUMERS, with the hopes that if enough consumers start voicing their opinions/needs/hopes it will have a positive impact on the market and move it out of the current quagmire---unfortunately it seems that a lot of developer types are the only ones who read these boards---and they are getting defensive.
It's not a matter of getting defensive. It's that we try, and try, and try and no one gives us good input, but then you guys complain because we're not "doing our job". Case in point a couple weeks ago a started this thread and got almost no response, then you post this thread compaining about what I was attempting to fix.
 

Firstly, there is no *one* solution.

I hate PCGen - slow, clunky, and a pain to try and edit or create .lst files.

I hate E-tools because I paid for a piece of garbage...

I hate CMP because they *had* an exclusive licensing agreement to create data sets (and then tried hawking their services on the message boards of at least one competitor to PCGen.)

I hate DMGenie because it is extremely difficult for me to script things.

All that having been said, I currently use DMGenie because it *has* the *capability* to do everything you want, with the exception of maps and a cutesy GUI. The maps can be made in *any* software you want (or scanned in from hand-drawn) and then imported into DMGenie. You can use NPC Designer to rapidly create non-monster (i.e. "Half-Elf Fighter2/Wizard 2" vice "Orc") NPCs and quickly import them into DMGenie.

I'm waiting to see the results of Vascant's current efforts and Redblade, and am looking at RPGXplorer.
 

3catcircus said:
I hate CMP because they *had* an exclusive licensing agreement to create data sets (and then tried hawking their services on the message boards of at least one competitor to PCGen.)
More like envy than hate. Blame WotC. They're the ones who hold copyright to their D&D material that are not added to their SRDs (or have been designated OGC in such product like Unearthed Arcana).

I recalled a thread in the Wizards' MB that petitions WotC to support RPGX. Personally, that's easy money. You give them the right (and let them do the dirty work) and just wait for your royalty checks in the mail.
 

First - I like PCGen. It is wonderful. I can create whatever I want with it. I can customize classes. I can tweak things to make it do what I need. And there's no silly pictures in the way. (Personally I dislike the 'clink' chain mail effect.) Its great.
I've been using the 5.8 with CMP datasets. I downloaded and checked out the latest. The newer effects are nice touches. The notes area having what you should do next - good touch. The blue checks with what you haven't done yet - cool.
There are parts that need to be cleaned up I think. Getting to create a new magical item is awkward. The different umm sets is confusing. Like different equipment sets, different spell books. I think this is a useful feature but not sure how to use it.
And there's legal grumbles. Can't have the PHB gods, can't have 'Tensers floating disk', etc. These are nuisances. And I understand them - it doesn't mean I like it.
Thanks.
-cpd
 

Ranger REG said:
More like envy than hate. Blame WotC. They're the ones who hold copyright to their D&D material that are not added to their SRDs (or have been designated OGC in such product like Unearthed Arcana).

Actually, the emphasis was on exclusive licensing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that other entities couldn't purchase a license to produce WotC datasets even if they wanted to - whether for PCGen, E-tools, or any other software tool. No datasets for DMGenie, Redblade, etc. Competition would have been good for CMP and for us.

I recalled a thread in the Wizards' MB that petitions WotC to support RPGX. Personally, that's easy money. You give them the right (and let them do the dirty work) and just wait for your royalty checks in the mail.

Agreed - but if RPGX *also* has an exclusive license, it will be just as bad as anyone else having an exclusive license. Competition is good.
 

3catcircus said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that other entities couldn't purchase a license to produce WotC datasets even if they wanted to - whether for PCGen, E-tools, or any other software tool. No datasets for DMGenie, Redblade, etc. Competition would have been good for CMP and for us.
That was WotC's call, not CMP's. CMP didn't have an exclusive license. When other chargens talked about it, at least Mynex (I think Lone Jedi as well) said to go ahead and approach WotC to ask.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top