Dwarves rock, Half-orcs suck! - An analysis

So, some of you might recall my recent thread asking about a "buy the numbers" system for races. This is, in essence, an attempt to take the abilities of each of the races and boil them down to point values, with the idea that you could "custom build" a race how you wanted to, not how the PHB wanted you to.

So, I figured it would be easy enough, I could do it.

I built a spreadsheet, and listed all the abilities, and then based on how weak or powerful the ability was, I simply assigned a number to it.

All races have a few things in common - size, speed, their vision, and whether they have any ability modifiers, or any disadvantages. I figured being medium-sized and having a speed of 30 was the default, so I didn't apply points to that, I just applied bonus points for those races that didn't have those. Being small has advantages, but the disadvantages offset them (high encumbrance requirements, reduced movement), so I didn't assign any points for size one way or the other.

I assigned 40 points for a +2 to an ability score, and a -40 for a -2 to an ability score. So for all the races, except half-orc, these cancel each other. I gave 20 points for low-light vision, and 40 points for darkvision. I assigned a cost of 10 points per +2 to a skill. I assigned 10 points per +2 to a save if the save was some sort of subset of a save, like saves vs. fear or poison. If a race had a cross-class penalty, they got 10 bonus points. Otherwise, it was 0. Other abilities I assigned as I felt was justified.

So, here is what I came up with.

human
speed 30=0
size medium=0
vision normal=0
ability mods,none=0
any bonus language=5
bonus feat=50
extra skills (4 at first, 1 every level thereafter)=20
no xp penalty=0
total = 75

elf
speed 30=0
size medium=0
vision low-light=20
+2 dex=40
immune to sleep magic=10
extra weapon proficiencies=10
+2 listen, spot, search=30
require less sleep=5
+2 saves vs. ench=10
xp penalty=-10
-2 con=-40
total = 75

gnome
speed 20=-20
size small=0
low-light=20
+2 con=40
+2 listen=10
1 exotic weapon=5
+2 saves to illusion=10
+1 DC to illusions=10
+4 AC to giants=10
+2 craft(alchemy)=10
+1 BAB vs. goblins=10
bonus spells=20
xp penalty=-10
-2 str=-40
total = 75

halfling
speed 20=-20
size small=0
vision normal=0
+2 dex=40
+2 climb, jump, move silently=30
+1 to all saves=40
+2 saves vs. fear=10
+1 BAB to thrown weapons=15
+2 listen=10
xp penalty=-10
-2 str=-40
total = 75

half-elves
speed 30=0
size medium=0
vision low-light=20
ability mods none=0
immune to sleep magic=10
+2 saves vs. ench=10
+1 listen, spot, search=15
+2 gather info, diplomacy=20
no xp penalty=0
total = 75

So... I go this far, and yea I tweaked a few numbers here and then, but imagine how happy I was to have them all come out the same. "Cool", I said to myself, "this will work." I was content to just stop there, and build a system around these figures. I am not planning on having dwarves or half-orcs in my campaign, so I opted not to do them, but I decided, "oh, what the heck, they won't take that much time."

half-orc
speed 30=0
size medium=0
vision darkvision=40
+2 str=40
xp penalty=-10
-2 int=-40
-2 chr=-40
total=-10

dwarf
speed 20, improved=-10
medium=0
darkvision=40
+2 con=40
stronecunning=15
exotic weapons=5
stable=10
+2 saves vs. poison=10
+2 saves vs. spells=20
+4 AC to giants=10
+1 BAB vs. goblins=10
+2 appraise, craft (applies to stone items only)=15
xp penalty=-10
-2 chr=-40
total=115

WHAT THE HECK!?
Here my system, which admittedly is somewhat arbitrary (I welcome any feedback on my numbers, btw), but the half-orc and dwarf come in and total screw everything up.

I mean, after listing out and looking at all the stuff that dwarves get, I can't imagine why everyone *wouldn't* want to play one. They get tons of extra stuff. At first I thought that gnomes got lots of abilities, and they do, but not as many as dwarves, and some of the dwarven ones are really potent.

And poor half-orcs! They get a -2 to an ability score in exchange for darkvision which essentially cancel each other out, but then they get the XP penalty, which puts them in the hole. Top this off with the unquantifiable role-playing disadvantage of playing one, why on earth would anyone want to play a half-orc?

Because some people would rather RP a half-orc than a dwarf? I personally like playing dwarfs, but not in long-running campaigns. They seem a bit regimented for that to me while half-orcs could grow in so many ways I'd much rather play one than a dwarf.

I'm not sure you need a numerical analysis to conclude that v. 3.5 dwarves have a higher cheese content than any other race. House rule them back to v. 3.0 - as I have - and you see their popularity wane somewhat (15 ft speed in heavy armour hurts in the tactical wargame that is D&D v. 3.x).

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

I think Dwarves as written should really be a +1 ECL race. If you have Grim Tales, take a look at the excellent CR breakdown in the back; it also illustrates the huge disparity.

That's why I give half-orcs +2 intimidate, +2 vs poison and eat anything, the ability to eat and digest revolting organic things like carrion and shoe leather.

Piratecat: you've been playing NetHack for far too long One reason I always chose Orc as my race in the game, so I could eat everything and hopefully gain an ability.

Never played it, actually -- but I bet the person here I yoinked the idea from did.

Back in the early days of 3.0 I did the same thing. I made a point based system that came out to 45 for most of the races, except the half-orc. IIRC, the gnomes came out to a little more than 45 points.

No one ever plays half orcs in our games and they don't even have a place in my homebrew, so I don't really worry about it. I do like Pirate Cat's adjustments though. If I was going to play one, I'd want to add something like that to my character.

die_kluge said:

I assigned 40 points for a +2 to an ability score, and a -40 for a -2 to an ability score.

Click to expand...

Not quite as cut and dried as that though. One of the things that playing Mutants and Masterminds really brought home to me was exactly how beneficial some stats when compared to others. I get a boost to strength and its ups my combat ability, a bunch of useful adventuring skills like climb and jump, and my ability to carry stuff home. It's the pre-reque to whole chains of feats. All of this is regardless of class.

I get a +2 boost to charisma, and I'll be slightly better off in a bunch of skills and *possible* able to get a slightly better follower using leadership.

Mostly, I just see people playing half-orcs when they want to start with 20 strength at 1st level and do scads of damage with their great axes.

In comparison, Arwink, I just statted up a marshal for whom +2 charisma is MUCH more important than +2 strength. This brought home the fact that which stat is "most important" really varies by class and character design concept; I'd love to give my marshal an ECL +0 race with a +2 cha boost, but I can't find any that aren't twink elf subraces.

Piratecat said:

In comparison, Arwink, I just statted up a marshal for whom +2 charisma is MUCH more important than +2 strength. This brought home the fact that which stat is "most important" really varies by class and character design concept;

Click to expand...

True, but this will be true of any stat. In terms of general use, regardless of class, Str stands above Charisma. Class trumps race in this respect, but when you're balancing races it's hard to account for such combinations.

We'll leave aside the difficulties of balancing anything once you start branching beyond the core rules.

I'd love to give my marshal an ECL +0 race with a +2 cha boost, but I can't find any that aren't twink elf subraces.

Click to expand...

Twinky High Kobold PC Race