Dwarves rock, Half-orcs suck! - An analysis

[Perun]

I won't get into the math analysis really (you can't ignore the official WotC stat policy, and expect balanced results), but I'll note that half-elves should also be above the 75 point norm, by your analysis. You forgot to give them additional 5 points for having "any bonus languages" feature, the same as human. In fact they might even get 7 points for it, since they start with two automatic languages (as opposed to a single language a human starts with), and get bonus langauges on top of that.

So, it should be 80 to 82 points for half-elves.

Sillyness aside, I don't think you can actually numerically compare the races without some serious tweaking, and then it's not really objective any more.

 

[Particle_Man]

It might be useful to look at other ECL 0 races, like kobold, goblin and orc (and maybe some in other books, like the XPH). I'm too lazy to actually *do* this, mind you.

Then compare some ECL + 1 races. If any of those (the Blue, perhaps?) come in at less cost than the dwarf, we have an interesting situation.

 

[Zappo]

I don't quite agree with your numbers. You assign the same value for all ability scores, even though it is widely accepted that not all ability scores are worth the same. You also assign the same value for a bonus or a penalty, but a smart player can easily maximize the impact of the bonus while reducing the impact of the penalty. These two are also the reasons for which I don't think that half-orcs are too weak.

Anyway, I think that all point systems find it hard to appraise interactions between their features; there's no substitute for DM's judgement. An example - +2 STR, -2 CON is vastly inferior to +2 STR, -2 CHA, because many characters who value STR have little use for CHA and lots for CON. At the same time, a +2 CHA, -2 STR is a lot better than +2 CHA, -2 CON, because of sorcerers. So it's clear that CON has a high value, but what about STR and CHA?

Dwarves are strong, though. Also, I think that 4+1 extra skill points should be worth more than an elf's skill bonuses.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Few people want to play the dwarf. Dwarves live underground where they build huge complexes, citadels, and the finest weaponry known to sentients. Then a couple of tens of thousands of goblins crash in and kill the dwarves and begin squatting the place. Dwarves are big time losers.

Still, the game needs dwarves just as bad (well not quite) as it needs clerics. The designers tries to bribe you into playing a dwarf in the same way you get paid off to play the party cleric.

Ignore it I say. There is nothing more fun to play than a half-orc barbarian. (If that's your cup of tea.)

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't like the fact that Half-Orcs are among the best melee warriors but basically nothing else. If you want to play a tank you probably should be a Half-Orc, but a Dwarf or a Human also work well in their own way.
If you want to play something different instead, or if you just don't need the highest Str as possible, you'd better not play a Half-Orc at all.

There seems to be really something lacking from the Half-Orc race as written. Usually they say that +2 Str deserved TWO negative modifiers (unlike any other race) as a balance, because Str is usually more useful than any other stat. I don't necessarily agree, and furthermore the choice of lowering Int & Cha basically cuts off the entire group of arcane casters, while the other races don't have this harsh sort of limitation.
Then someone else in WotC probably thought to give the HO some other bonus in skills or ST or whatever, as every other race, but the lead designer must have said "no, they already get +2 Str".
Or maybe someone pointed out an idea to represent their human heritage, in the form of extra skill points or free favored class, but the leader probably pointed out that since they already got +2 Str, that would have been unbalancing... At this point I wonder why they dared to give HO even Darkvision
Now that the HO was done, if someone objects that it is inferior to other classes, the response is "but it's cool to RP!". Mah :\ how is it "cool" to roleplay someone who is just stronger, and nothing else? And how it is "less cool" to RP any other race?

Besides, I don't even think that -2 Int and -2 Cha are bad for the common HO tank. What I mean is that, it is not a real cost for the ones who play HO for the Strength, it could be a cost for the ones who would like to play classes which don't need that +2 Str as much.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

I don't mind the neg to Int & Cha for a higher strength, *I* just thenk they deserve more bonuses to match the others. Scarred Lands had a cool write up, I think they also got +2 to Intimidate, Bluff, and Sense Motive due to their nature as survivors and having to get by on cunning and wits (not education).

 

[Belen]

PC- I have two non-twink races that get bonus' to charisma. E-mail me or pm me if you're interested.

Dave

 

[hong]

I mean, after listing out and looking at all the stuff that dwarves get, I can't imagine why everyone *wouldn't* want to play one. They get tons of extra stuff. At first I thought that gnomes got lots of abilities, and they do, but not as many as dwarves, and some of the dwarven ones are really potent.

And poor half-orcs! They get a -2 to an ability score in exchange for darkvision which essentially cancel each other out, but then they get the XP penalty, which puts them in the hole. Top this off with the unquantifiable role-playing disadvantage of playing one, why on earth would anyone want to play a half-orc?

Edit: removed political comment. Hong, you know better than that. -Dinkeldog

 

[Mystery Man]

WHAT THE HECK!?


Here my system, which admittedly is somewhat arbitrary (I welcome any feedback on my numbers, btw), but the half-orc and dwarf come in and total screw everything up.

Just for s and giggles you should add all of the Forgotten Realms subraces to that from all the source books. I predict your spreadsheet program will voluntarily shut down and lead the rest of your programs in a revolt. Or it all evens out. Or you discover another alternative fuel source.

Edit: I edited out the stuff that the profanity filter should have caught. --Dinkeldog

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think that any analysis that puts elves as high as humans and half-elves higher is seriously flawed.

I'll add to that my personal experience: players in my campaign rarely play dwarves (either subrace), and when they do it's usually grudgingly to qualify for the dwarven defender, which several players like. They see taking dwarf as the 'cost' of dwarven defender.

Caveat: I don't give dwarves weapon familiarity with dwarven waraxes.