Class Construction Guide updated, more feedback needed

tjoneslo · Jan 17, 2005

After seeing the feedback on the previous release of the Class Construction Guide, I've produced an updated version for your perusal.

Changes include:
An complete update of the costs for the class elements.
Different point costs for classes of different levels.
Updated to use the SRD 3.5 classes, including the psionic classes and powers.

Needed to do:
Need to finish the examples for the psionic classses, epic classes, modern and future classes.

More feedback is needed, for thoes interested in meta-design issues. Thank you for your time.

CRGreathouse · Jan 17, 2005

This is very nice. The order of the classes now more closely fits my experience; the cleric is the most powerful class instead of the monk.

I'll look over it more carefully when I have a chance and get you some specific feedback. This does really look good, though!

MeiRen · Jan 19, 2005

Looks interesting, I've been working on something similiar. Where did you get those numbers, though? They don't fit my math, and I'm curious as to how you came up with them.

Matrix Sorcica · Jan 19, 2005

Looks really good.

From a quick scan: I think that the rogue's sneak attack should equal 10 feats i.e. 20 points. That's what they do in UA and it makes sense, IMO.
Also, I'd say that evasion is more powerful than a feat. More like 4 points.

Did you make an error in the example with the paladin spell casting? It should be 6 points I think, not 9. You multiply by 3 instead of the correct 2... ?

Will get back later with more comments..

Thanee · Jan 19, 2005

Doesn't look bad, but many specifics don't look right to me.

(Note: I mostly looked at the PHB class compositions, only browsed over the rest in like 30 seconds for now, will read it more closely later, tho, promise!).

Bardic spellcasting is only worth 17 points!?
I mean, sure, it's neither a wizard's nor a cleric's but 17 is a tad low, nonetheless.

Then you give 30 points for a poor BAB. In all honesty, that should not be worth that much (poor BAB is not half as much in practice as a good BAB - sure, it's exactly twice as high, but that does not say its worth only twice as much in practice, it's much higher than that (in the same way, that two 5th level chars are not equal to one 10th level char, but rather one 7th level char)).

It also seems, that you have not figured in how much more a free choice (or broad choice) is worth compared to a fixed choice (or narrow choice), i.e. the fighter's bonus feats are each worth 2 points it seems, as are the monk's bonus feats, yet the fighter has more choice and therefore those bonus feats ought to be worth more.

You just have to compare the human to the demihuman races, and you'll see what I mean.

That's what I could find in the quick glance so far. Maybe I'll give you some more later.

Bye
Thanee

tjoneslo · Jan 19, 2005

MeiRen said:
Looks interesting, I've been working on something similiar. Where did you get those numbers, though? They don't fit my math, and I'm curious as to how you came up with them.

Since I've not seen your numbers, I'm not sure why they don't match. If you look at the Section 15 in the OGL page, there is a list of other class construction guides I used as references. I reverse engineered them, and then rounded the results and averaged them. I wanted a system where the users were not dealing with fractions (other than 0.5). If you have some numbers for some of the features please post them, I'd like to see what other people feel the various abilities are worth.

tjoneslo · Jan 19, 2005

Thanee said:
Doesn't look bad, but many specifics don't look right to me.

Bardic spellcasting is only worth 17 points!?
I mean, sure, it's neither a wizard's nor a cleric's but 17 is a tad low, nonetheless.

This comes out of a combination of factors: Bards only get 4th level spells, they have to "know" them like sorcerers, and they have a smaller list of overall spells than the sorcerers. This ends up makng spell casting point costs somewhat non-linear.

Then you give 30 points for a poor BAB. In all honesty, that should not be worth that much (poor BAB is not half as much in practice as a good BAB - sure, it's exactly twice as high, but that does not say its worth only twice as much in practice, it's much higher than that (in the same way, that two 5th level chars are not equal to one 10th level char, but rather one 7th level char)).

You're saying the BAB cost should be non-linear like the spell casting cost. One off-the-cuff example would be Poor:15, Moderate:30, Good: 50. Would this better match your experience?

It also seems, that you have not figured in how much more a free choice (or broad choice) is worth compared to a fixed choice (or narrow choice), i.e. the fighter's bonus feats are each worth 2 points it seems, as are the monk's bonus feats, yet the fighter has more choice and therefore those bonus feats ought to be worth more.

This is deliberate. My caclcuations show that the difference of picking from a list of one or a list of 20 is worth less than half a point, which is the rouding cut off. I agree is should be worth more, it just gets lost in the rounding.

You just have to compare the human to the demihuman races, and you'll see what I mean.

To make a completely fair comparison of the classes I would also need to include a race/monster comparison point coster, which could give a point value for each character. I'm not ready to do that quite yet.

Thanee · Jan 20, 2005

That's not what I meant with the human.

A human gets only two (well two and a half) things. Free choice of feat and free choice of skill points (plus somewhat free favored class).

Demihumans get like what? A dozen abilities? Yet, humans are the second most powerful race, right after the dwarfs.

The choice is exactly what makes the humans so powerful, not the amount of stuff they get. Only the choice (and TBH it's mostly the free feat choice, really).

I think the difference is more than a rounding error.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. Bard's get up to 6th level spells, but I guess you know and just misspelled that.

tjoneslo · Jan 20, 2005

I haven't counted the number of feats in the PHB so I'm making up some numbers here.

If I agree with the point that picking a feat from a list larger than one is worth more than picking from a list of one item, what should the cost be, in your estimation?

The SRD has some 100 feats listed (more or less). So the choice of one feat from a list of one (i.e. a class feature) should cost 2 points. This 2 point cost is a base for a feat pick or the equivlent. The fighters ability to pick from a list of 20 feats, mostly based around improving their fighting ability should be worth 2.5 points (giving the figher an extra 5.5 points) because of the synergies of the feat selection. The Human class ability to pick from 75 feats (the rest have prerequistes of one sort or another) should be worth 3 to 5 points.

Hrm. The ability scores balance (in theory), so what's left are the other abilities. Checking the SRD, 4-6 abilities at 2 points apiece gives 8-12 points. The human skill bonus is worth 5 points, so the feat pick needs to be worth about 5 points.

Is that more like what you were thinking of?

dragoncc · Jan 24, 2005

tjoneslo said:
Hrm. The ability scores balance (in theory), so what's left are the other abilities. Checking the SRD, 4-6 abilities at 2 points apiece gives 8-12 points. The human skill bonus is worth 5 points, so the feat pick needs to be worth about 5 points.

Is that more like what you were thinking of?

I think what Thanee's getting at is that number involved in the choice isn't a linear progression for a point basis analysis. After a point it is a diminishing return because all you have is 1 choice. It doesn't matter if there are 25 really good feats or 1000 whatever feats, you still only get 1.

The fighter should be a little different because at least the fighter is going to get over half of those 20 feats that is on his list.

Also consider these:
1. A great number of the feats in the SRD are the +2, +2 skill feats (that is essentially one feat).
2. The number of feats in any one DM's game is going to vary dramatically.
3. Each person values different feats differently than another.

It's simply the choice that needs the point assesment IMO -- probably making it a 3 pointer.

Hope that all makes sense cause I just typed what popped into my head

Class Construction Guide updated, more feedback needed

tjoneslo

First Post

CRGreathouse

Community Supporter

MeiRen

First Post

Matrix Sorcica

Hero

Thanee

First Post

tjoneslo

First Post

tjoneslo

First Post

Thanee

First Post

tjoneslo

First Post

dragoncc

Community Supporter

Similar Threads