Class Construction Guide updated, more feedback needed

[CRGreathouse]

Demihumans get like what? A dozen abilities? Yet, humans are the second most powerful race, right after the dwarfs.

In my experience, humans are considerably stronger than dwarves. Few of my players are willing to play dwarves, except as a change of pace or to qualify for the dwarven defender prestige class.

The SRD has some 100 feats listed (more or less). So the choice of one feat from a list of one (i.e. a class feature) should cost 2 points. This 2 point cost is a base for a feat pick or the equivlent. The fighters ability to pick from a list of 20 feats, mostly based around improving their fighting ability should be worth 2.5 points (giving the figher an extra 5.5 points) because of the synergies of the feat selection. The Human class ability to pick from 75 feats (the rest have prerequistes of one sort or another) should be worth 3 to 5 points.

Perhaps 2 points for a bonus feat from a list of 1 to 2 (e.g. monk bonus feats), 2.25 for a list of 3 to 9, 2.5 for a list of 10-60 (e.g. fighter feats), and 2.75 for larger lists? I don't think free choice doubles the utility of the bonus feat.

 

[dragoncc]

Perhaps 2 points for a bonus feat from a list of 1 to 2 (e.g. monk bonus feats), 2.25 for a list of 3 to 9, 2.5 for a list of 10-60 (e.g. fighter feats), and 2.75 for larger lists? I don't think free choice doubles the utility of the bonus feat.

A most elegant solution, I like it.

 

[Ismaul]

To add my little contribution to this thread, I'd say going into .25 points complicates things too much. I suggest 2 points for a bonus feat from a list of 1-2, 2.5 for a small list, and 3 for a large list (10+). Really, does it make a difference if I can chose from 40 feats or from a hundred? I wouldn't think so. You could even streamline more, say 2 points for a bonus feat from a list of 1-3, 3 for a larger list. No half points.

A system to quantify classes has to be simple if you want it to be used. Going into quarters or halves of points is IMHO a bad idea.

 

[Thanee]

Is that more like what you were thinking of?

Yep, tho I think the free feat is worth more than the extra skill points.
The extra skill points are worth only slightly more than a fixed feat.

However, if a fixed feat-like ability is 2 points, a free feat should be around 3, when there is a sufficiently large list to choose from (i.e. fighter bonus feat, but not monk or wizard bonus feat).

It's also important when a class gets the feat. A 1st or 2nd level feat is worth more than a 10th or 15th level feat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[tjoneslo]

It's also important when a class gets the feat. A 1st or 2nd level feat is worth more than a 10th or 15th level feat.

Why? The higher level feat pick can, in theory, have access to some feats which require prerequisites. These feats with prerequisites are usually stronger than the lower rank feats.

In any case I want to go very simple for this. Bonus feat 2 points, if the feat list is more than 20, 3 points. As Ismaul points out, too many divisions make it less friendly ranther than more.

 

[Thanee]

Because of Prestige Classes.

A wizard's 10th, 15th and 20th level bonus feats are basically worth 0, they rarely, if ever, come into play at all. Opposed to that, the 5th level bonus feat is a major class feature.

Bye
Thanee

 

[tjoneslo]

Because of Prestige Classes.

A wizard's 10th, 15th and 20th level bonus feats are basically worth 0, they rarely, if ever, come into play at all. Opposed to that, the 5th level bonus feat is a major class feature.

Given the many vigorous debates on this forum regarding the usefullness and use of prestige classes I would argue this is a play style issue, not a design issue. I agree that if you play only to 10th level and then multiclass, the higher bonus feats are never used. OTOH, if you play single class to 15th-20th level, they become important.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, but put it this way... every wizard (discounting characters who just dip into the class for some reason) will get the 5th level bonus feat. Some wizards will get the 10th level bonus feat. Very few wizards will get the 15th or 20th level bonus feat.

I think the 5th level bonus feat is worth more than the 20th level bonus feat therefore.

Bye
Thanee

 

[tjoneslo]

I've updated the Class Construction Guide. No new rules or number, but I've updated more of the known classes from the SRD. This include the Psionic, Modern and Future classes, but not the Epic level classes. This is mostly to prove if the classes balance with each other, so next is to figure any changes and redo all the classes again.

Download here or from the link above.

 

[Thanee]

How did you manage to get the Psion a lower total than the Sorcerer?

I mean, apart from my quarrels with the XPH, I think mostly everyone agrees, that the Psion is way ahead of the Sorcerer in terms of power. Should be about 250 total, then it would begin to sound right compared to the rest.

BTW, Psychic Warrior got no Total.

Bye
Thanee