The extreme proliferation of magic in D&D

So reading about the new magic book by Wizards, and I see someone note "the extreme proliferation of magic in D&D" and think to myself.... inherently, there's really nothing forcing magic to "extreme proliferation".

As a matter of fact, there are now several low magic variants out there like Black Company, Thieves World, Grim Tales, Dark Legacies, and Iron Heroes to name a few.

But even in just basic D&D, there is nothing forcing "the extreme proliferation of magic in D&D." They're options. They don't have to be on every corner.

Am I looking at it the wrong way?

JoeGKushner said:

Am I looking at it the wrong way?

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That was my comment, and no, you're not looking at it wrong. It's true that a DM only has to allow what he wants to allow in his game. My comment was more directed at what I've perceived coming out of WotC products of late--for instance, in the Eberron Explorer's Handbook (great book, by the way), even the lowly border patrol of Eberron nations has spellcasters in their ranks and carry +1 magic weapons. I guess part of it is that Eberron is specifically geared to be a high-magic setting, but it amazes me just how many NPCs in Eberron, and in D&D 3E in general, wield or carry magic. I use a lot of elements of the Eberron setting in my own campaign world, but border patrol guards with +1 mighty composite longbows and wizard levels isn't one of them. Spellcasters are much more rare IMC, which means that the majority of the NPCs that my players encounter--by far--are non-spellcasters. I like it that way; as I try to emulate medievalism to a degree, it makes more sense to me than having potion shops on every corner of a magic city.

As new sourcebooks come out with stuff I want to integrate, I find myself more and more feeling the need to scale back the level of magic in the elements I want to use. It's becoming tedious, quite frankly. Perhaps it's time to switch systems to something with less magical proliferation baked into it.

It all boils down to personal taste. For me, D&D is a fantasy game with magic, not a historical simulation. I'm all for verisimilitude, but I don't really care for realism.

As for the "extreme proliferation of magic", it's all in the hands of the DM. "Magic of Incarnum" is an option you can use or not use in you game, as it suits you. Maybe, I'm too easy-going in this respect, because I'm always saying the same about Elminster & Co. and the Forgotten Realms.

Personally, I like magic in my game. I'm fond of Glorantha, where each and every peasant knows a spell or two. These are no combat spells, but utility ones, so it's more about flavour. It's the task of the DM to make this flavour work .

ForceUser said:

As new sourcebooks come out with stuff I want to integrate, I find myself more and more feeling the need to scale back the level of magic in the elements I want to use. It's becoming tedious, quite frankly. Perhaps it's time to switch systems to something with less magical proliferation baked into it.

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Every RPG has at least one specific Cool Thing about it. D&D has Magic. Shadowrun has Magic and Cybertech. Star Wars has Force powers. CoC has new ways for you to get your intestines pulled out through your ears, and Books. WoD is new [Whatever Stuff is connected to your Clan/Sept/whatever].

I've been trying to think of an RPG that hasn't had a proliferation of 'The Cool Stuff' connected with that game. For any fantasy-based game, what's the first mechanics-based supplement done? A book with new spells and new ways of using them. Sci-Fi game? New weapons, or ships, or Force Powers. I can't think of a single one, other than games that are basically dead lines.

OK, one; HERO and other self-contained point-build games, because all the Stuff in it is Stuff already in the game; they're just showing you new ways to go about putting the peices together. I can't remember the last time the was an honest-to-goodness New Power in the game.

But I think that looking to the system and not GM/Player cooperation to put a limit on Cool Stuff is only going to end in frustration and empty wallets.

ForceUser said:

Perhaps it's time to switch systems to something with less magical proliferation baked into it.

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Well, didn't you just say that it is rather the DM's choice, so that it isn't baked into the system?

It is certianly baked into the setting in Eberron. Perhaps it's time to switch settings, to one of the sort JoeGKushner mentions.

even when playing the newer editions i use the rules that govern them.

size of town = wealth = populace and such.

it is only when the DM feels the need to place a 10th lvl wizard in a thorp of 50 that things get whacky...

the need to have a CLW wand available still relies on the number of clerics in town and the ability of them to craft wand. most towns that isn't possible. craft wand being at least x lvl and all.

Umbran said:

Well, didn't you just say that it is rather the DM's choice, so that it isn't baked into the system?

It is certianly baked into the setting in Eberron. Perhaps it's time to switch settings, to one of the sort JoeGKushner mentions.

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I said system but meant setting. Yes, you're right. I'm not ditching my current campaign world mid-stride, but my next new campaign might be with a different d20 variant.

ForceUser said:

As new sourcebooks come out with stuff I want to integrate, I find myself more and more feeling the need to scale back the level of magic in the elements I want to use. It's becoming tedious, quite frankly. Perhaps it's time to switch systems to something with less magical proliferation baked into it.

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These statements seem to be at opposite ends of one another. As new sourcebooks come out with stuff you want to integrate you find yourself feeling the need to scale back the level of magic? Especailly if you're looking at Eberron or standard D&D books.

For level based games like Rolemaster and HARP, I've noticed that as the characters advance in level, yeah, the magic tends to crop up more often just to present some level of challenge ot the PCs. In RMSS especially it's vital to have healing magics of all sorts of levels to overcome the critis.

Some games, like Conan, Iron heroes, and Black Company however, tend to break way from that model but have a different antagonist structure than D&D too.

JoeGKushner said:

These statements seem to be at opposite ends of one another. As new sourcebooks come out with stuff you want to integrate you find yourself feeling the need to scale back the level of magic? Especailly if you're looking at Eberron or standard D&D books.

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I should clarify--I want to integrate locales, NPCs, monsters, adventure hooks, etc., but not the magical gear that usally accompanies them. So for each new bit I use, I'm tweaking it before I use it by throwing out magic weapons and potions, etc. It's the constant tweaking to scale back the magical proliferation--purely self-imposed--that's becoming tedious.

They *are* just options, and should be ignored by the DM if he wishes to not use them. On the other hand, there exists in certain players an entitlement mentality that can sometimes be difficult to overcome without creating friction in the game. These players seem to think they are entitled to use any and all WOTC D&D books as canon for any given game. As a DM, it is easy enough to circumvent this issue, unless the player(s) in question get upset about paying money for a book you won't allow them to use or feel you are "limiting" their character development. As always, I try to lay out the strictures of my game in advance so that no player purchases material that will be deemed unusable in my game.