(Edited to reflect suggestions)
Hi Everyone! I’m looking for some balance advice from any rules lawyers on here about my aquatic/water-elemental take on a paladin. It is for a campaign world where the Elemental Planes had partially fused with the Material Plane long ago and have since dominated all of the cultures there. The paladin orders in that world fall under the Water category. There are virtually no undead in this campaign world, but plenty of evil fire monsters, so that’s how the class is geared. I’ll outline the “crunchy” changes I’ve made up top, but I included the full class description and flavor afterwards for anyone who wants to read it and/or use it in their campaign world.
Basically, my mechanics changes boil down to:
1) Replaced Knowledge (Nobility) with Knowledge (Geography)
2) Aura of Good also can be detected as (Water) subtype for any effects that could see that.
3) Detect Evil can be declared instead as Detect Fire (For (Fire) subtype monsters and Fire religion NPCs) each time it's used
3) Smiting doesn’t work against evil, instead it works against (Fire) subtype monsters and Fire religion NPCs.
4) Lay on Hands is derived from the life-giving side of water, not positive energy, so it’s useless on undead, but hurts fire.
5) Turn Undead is replaced with the Water Domain’s granted power of turning (Fire) creatures and rebuking (Water) creatures.
6) Spell list majorly revised to focus on water spells, including some direct damage water/cold type spells (Some I only know of from the 3.0 splat books I own, and I only have Complete Divine for 3.5. If anyone knows if they’ve been updated to a 3.5 “Complete” book, or if there’s a reason to exclude them from a 3.5 game, please let me know).
7) Allowed variant aquatic Mounts, as per Defenders of the Faith: Large Shark, Sea Cat
8) Removed abilities Divine Health and Remove Disease
9) Added Create Water (Sp) 1/day at 3rd level, plus an additional 1/day every 3 levels after, becoming at will at 18th
10) Added Quench (Sp) in place of Remove Disease
I think I may have removed too many abilities for the addition of the spell-like ones and the offensive spells, so I wanted to see what the consensus was on if/what abilities should be put back, and/or how to set the progression of the two spell-like abilities. That’s the big balance trouble I have; finding equity for those new abilities with the base paladin. Should they still smite evil? Give back Divine Grace? Just speed up / add Create Water progression? There’s a lot of options, and I want to optimize the balance so they’re a desirable class, but not overpowering. Also, as I said, I wanted to know if any of the 3.0 only spells that I have added are broken / should be phased out of 3.5. Finally, would this concept lean more towards Neutral Good than Lawful? I picture them as less rigid than a traditional paladin, but they are a “needs of many” >= “needs of few” kind of character, so I’m not sure.
Ok, if you’re still interested, here’s the full class description. Thanks for reading and for any advice!
WATER VARIANT PALADIN
In the Time Before the coming of the elements, chivalrous knights crusaded in the name of the weak and powerless, championing the Old Gods of good. In the chaotic first eons of the Four Forces, these knights faded into obscurity. However, one conflict bred tremendous strife for the mortals of Elementia. At the peak of the Fire Lords’ power, massive devastation was wrought by orcs, magmin and salamanders, as fertile cropland was laid to waste and babbling streams evaporated in intense heat. The people were dying of starvation and thirst when the life-bringing waves of the Water Lords washed away the flames. And on those waves rode the paladins reborn. A new breed of warriors, made from the ranks of sea elves, merfolk, and tritons dedicated themselves to never letting the innocent suffer again and quashing evil flame creatures wherever they fled. These warriors used the elemental forces of water to drive back all of the Fire creatures into isolation and help rebuild communities. They vowed to never let an innocent mouth want of thirst again.
The paladins of Elementia can trace much of their heritage back to the divine knights of the Old Times, but they are a new breed entirely. These warriors have abandoned allegiance to a divine power and instead worship the life-giving properties of water. They still champion righteousness, but their primary focus is defense of the weak and less on rigid law and order. They believe no innocent life needs to starve or die of thirst, or be slain at the hands of rampaging hordes. They are sworn enemies of orcs, salamanders and efreet, and any creature that would burn and pillage wantonly.
Adventures: Paladins adventure to protect those who cannot protect themselves. They are very strongly tied to a sense of community and often travel to ensure people everywhere are safe and healthy. This may sometimes be as valorous as quashing an evil uprising of Fire monsters, or it may be as simple as teaching irrigation lessons to farmers. As long as people need to eat, drink, and be sheltered from the blazing heat of Fire, paladins will be there.
Characteristics: The Lords of the Water Plane, as well as their ethos of good protect a paladin and give her strength. It lets her heal the injured, conjure water from nothingness, dowse flames, and drive away Fire creatures. A paladin is so attuned to goodness and the life-giving properties of water that she can detect the presence of evil, destructive fire creatures at will, and then blast them with quenching elemental power. Finally, her righteousness and dedication draws a mighty steed to accompany her as she roams the world, helping others.
Alignment: Paladins must be neutal good, and they lose the abilities granted to them by the Water Lords if they stray. Additionally, paladins must abide by a strict code of conduct centered on defending the weak and innocent and caring for their needs.
Religion: Because the traditional gods and religions of other campaign worlds have all but faded from memory on Elementia, the paladin’s only religious alliance is to the Water Lords. They are welcomed in all Water temples and frequently associate with Water clerics.
Background: Paladinhood, as it has always been, is a calling. While the paladins of old sought to uphold law and vanquish all forms of evil, the new paladins are more focused on the community. Thus, they tend to find more grass roots recruits for the order among peasant folk of the Water realms. Many young lads look up to the wandering protectors, and seek to squire under them at first opportunity. Others feel the calling after being saved from the brink of destruction by the paladins, and feel an intrinsic need to give back. Whatever a paladin’s beginnings, the key trait all of them begin with is a sense of altruism.
Races: The most common race among paladins is aquatic elves, with humans a close second. The first wavemen were bred by the Water Lords from their loyal aquatic elf stock deep in the sea. As the currents took them further and further inland, more humans joined the order. Recently, as commerce and exchange has brought civility to the lizarfolk tribes, more and more of the enigmatic race have shown up at the paladins’ strongholds, seeking training. These scaly defenders have bolstered the ranks with mighty comrades in arms. Many paladins of the deep sea are also merfolk, locathah and tritons, waging an internal war with the xenophobic, bloodthirsty Sahuagin, deep beneath the blue surface.
GAME RULE INFORMATION:
Water Variant Paladins have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma is central to a water paladin’s identity as communal defender. It enhances their healing power, and aids in their fire turning abilities. Strength increases their melee combat power, and wisdom affects their spell-casting ability.
Alignment: Neutral good
Hit die: (Normal) d10
Class Skills:
The Water Variant Paladin’s class skills are as a normal paladin except Knowledge (Geography) replaces Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Skill Points: (Normal) 2+Int modifier
CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of the Water Variant Paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: (Normal), plus they are proficient in the exotic armors of the Water Realms, including Floodsuits (Modified hide armor with water circulation compartments to extend amphibious breathing) and Tojanida shell armor (modified plate armor useful for swimming)
Aura of Good (Ex): (Normal), plus the their aura can be detected by any effect that detects the (Water) subtype
Detect Evil (Sp): (Normal), as the spell, plus can detect creatures of the (Fire) subtype, as well as non-typed supporter of the Fire Lords (Such as orcs). The paladin must specify whether detecting evil or detecting fire when activating the ability
Smite Fire (Su): While a Water Variant Paladin may detect evil creatures, he cannot smite them as paladins of the Old Gods once did. Instead, the Smiting Powers of Water Variant Paladins must be used against (Fire) subtype creatures, or non-typed Fire worshippers (orcs, goblins humans, etc. of the Fire Realms). This is similar to the Elemental Smiting feat in Complete Divine, but doesn’t require a turn attempt. Instead it follows the use/day rules of a normal paladin’s smiting. As with normal paladins, if a smite attempt is used on a non-Fire creature, it is wasted.
Lay on Hands (Su): This functions as a Normal paladin’s, but its effects stem partially from the life-giving properties of water, as well as some connection to positive channeling. The effect typically appears to be a coalescing of mist over the wounded area where the paladin touches with the cool mists healing damage. Because Water Variant Clerics are only partially skilled in channeling Positive energies, the lay on hands ability cannot harm undead, but can be used to harm creatures of the Outsider (Fire), or Elemental (Fire) types, but not non-typed Fire creatures, such as orcs, or native (Fire) subtyped creatures such as dragons, fire giants or pyrohydras.
Divine Grace (Su) (Normal)
Aura of Courage (Su) (Normal)
Turn Fire / Rebuke Water (Su): Water Variant Paladins are not proficient enough in positive energy channeling to turn undead (which are near extinct on the campaign world of Elementia). Instead, this ability functions as a normal paladins would for undead (i.e. turning level equals paladin level minus three), but is used as the Water Domain granted power to affect both (Fire) subtype creatures and (Water) subtype creatures. This ability does not affect non-typed creatures.
Spells: (Normal), but different spell list, see below.
Special Mount (Sp): (Normal), but if the Water Variant Paladin waits until 6th level, they can call a Large Shark instead of a warhorse, and if they wait until 7th level, they can call a Sea Cat.
Create Water (Sp): At 3rd level the Water Variant Paladin can Create Water, as the spell, as a spell-like ability 1/day. This increases 1/day every three levels afterwards (2/day at 6th, 3/day at 9th, etc.), becoming at will upon 18th level.
Quench (Sp): This ability functions as the spell and replaces the Remove Disease ability of normal paladins.
Code of Conduct: A Water Variant Paladin must be Neutral Good, believing in the needs of the community over herself. She loses all class abilities if she willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a Water Variant Paladin’s code of honor requires that she act with honor and integrity, lift the downtrodden, slake the thirst and feed the hunger of the needy, and oppose the destructive forces of Fire in any way in her power.
Associates: In addition to not tolerating evil beings, Water Variant Paladins may not associate with chaotic Fire creatures, because these usually succumb to Fire’s destructive nature. A water paladin can tolerate, but not necessarily trust, lawful or neutral fire creatures (Such as azers or some fire-worshipping humans).
Spell List:
1st Level
Bless
Bless Water
Bless Weapon
Create Water
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Poison
Endure Elements
Protection from Evil
Obscuring Mist
Purify Food and Water
Read Magic
Resistance
Restoration, Lesser
Virtue
Divine Sacrifice (Complete Divine)
Golden Barding (CD)
Resurgence (CD)
Traveler’s Mount (CD)
Sweet Water (3.0 Defenders of the Faith, 3.5 version anywhere?)
2nd Level
Delay Poison
Eagle’s Splendor
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy (Fire/Cold only)
Shield Other
Zone of Truth
Fog Cloud
Chill Metal
Divine Zephyr (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
Knife Spray (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
Creeping Cold (CD)
Zeal(CD)
Lesser Cold Orb (3.0 Tome and Blood, 3.5?)
3rd Level
Create Food and Water
Cure Moderate Wounds
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Discern Lies
Dispel Magic
Heal Mount
Prayer
Remove Curse
Water Breathing
Magic Circle Against Evil
Resurgence, Mass (CD)
Sword Stream (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
4th Level
Break Enchantment
Cure Serious Wounds
Holy Sword
Mark of Justice
Neutralize Poison
Restoration
Control Water
Quench
Dispel Evil
Revenance (CD)
Sacred Haven (CD)
Spiritual Chariot (CD)
Mass Resist Energy (3.0 T&B, 3.5?)
Waterball (3.0 Masters of the Wild, 3.5?)
Phwew! Ok! Fire away your thoughts!
Hi Everyone! I’m looking for some balance advice from any rules lawyers on here about my aquatic/water-elemental take on a paladin. It is for a campaign world where the Elemental Planes had partially fused with the Material Plane long ago and have since dominated all of the cultures there. The paladin orders in that world fall under the Water category. There are virtually no undead in this campaign world, but plenty of evil fire monsters, so that’s how the class is geared. I’ll outline the “crunchy” changes I’ve made up top, but I included the full class description and flavor afterwards for anyone who wants to read it and/or use it in their campaign world.
Basically, my mechanics changes boil down to:
1) Replaced Knowledge (Nobility) with Knowledge (Geography)
2) Aura of Good also can be detected as (Water) subtype for any effects that could see that.
3) Detect Evil can be declared instead as Detect Fire (For (Fire) subtype monsters and Fire religion NPCs) each time it's used
3) Smiting doesn’t work against evil, instead it works against (Fire) subtype monsters and Fire religion NPCs.
4) Lay on Hands is derived from the life-giving side of water, not positive energy, so it’s useless on undead, but hurts fire.
5) Turn Undead is replaced with the Water Domain’s granted power of turning (Fire) creatures and rebuking (Water) creatures.
6) Spell list majorly revised to focus on water spells, including some direct damage water/cold type spells (Some I only know of from the 3.0 splat books I own, and I only have Complete Divine for 3.5. If anyone knows if they’ve been updated to a 3.5 “Complete” book, or if there’s a reason to exclude them from a 3.5 game, please let me know).
7) Allowed variant aquatic Mounts, as per Defenders of the Faith: Large Shark, Sea Cat
8) Removed abilities Divine Health and Remove Disease
9) Added Create Water (Sp) 1/day at 3rd level, plus an additional 1/day every 3 levels after, becoming at will at 18th
10) Added Quench (Sp) in place of Remove Disease
I think I may have removed too many abilities for the addition of the spell-like ones and the offensive spells, so I wanted to see what the consensus was on if/what abilities should be put back, and/or how to set the progression of the two spell-like abilities. That’s the big balance trouble I have; finding equity for those new abilities with the base paladin. Should they still smite evil? Give back Divine Grace? Just speed up / add Create Water progression? There’s a lot of options, and I want to optimize the balance so they’re a desirable class, but not overpowering. Also, as I said, I wanted to know if any of the 3.0 only spells that I have added are broken / should be phased out of 3.5. Finally, would this concept lean more towards Neutral Good than Lawful? I picture them as less rigid than a traditional paladin, but they are a “needs of many” >= “needs of few” kind of character, so I’m not sure.
Ok, if you’re still interested, here’s the full class description. Thanks for reading and for any advice!
WATER VARIANT PALADIN
In the Time Before the coming of the elements, chivalrous knights crusaded in the name of the weak and powerless, championing the Old Gods of good. In the chaotic first eons of the Four Forces, these knights faded into obscurity. However, one conflict bred tremendous strife for the mortals of Elementia. At the peak of the Fire Lords’ power, massive devastation was wrought by orcs, magmin and salamanders, as fertile cropland was laid to waste and babbling streams evaporated in intense heat. The people were dying of starvation and thirst when the life-bringing waves of the Water Lords washed away the flames. And on those waves rode the paladins reborn. A new breed of warriors, made from the ranks of sea elves, merfolk, and tritons dedicated themselves to never letting the innocent suffer again and quashing evil flame creatures wherever they fled. These warriors used the elemental forces of water to drive back all of the Fire creatures into isolation and help rebuild communities. They vowed to never let an innocent mouth want of thirst again.
The paladins of Elementia can trace much of their heritage back to the divine knights of the Old Times, but they are a new breed entirely. These warriors have abandoned allegiance to a divine power and instead worship the life-giving properties of water. They still champion righteousness, but their primary focus is defense of the weak and less on rigid law and order. They believe no innocent life needs to starve or die of thirst, or be slain at the hands of rampaging hordes. They are sworn enemies of orcs, salamanders and efreet, and any creature that would burn and pillage wantonly.
Adventures: Paladins adventure to protect those who cannot protect themselves. They are very strongly tied to a sense of community and often travel to ensure people everywhere are safe and healthy. This may sometimes be as valorous as quashing an evil uprising of Fire monsters, or it may be as simple as teaching irrigation lessons to farmers. As long as people need to eat, drink, and be sheltered from the blazing heat of Fire, paladins will be there.
Characteristics: The Lords of the Water Plane, as well as their ethos of good protect a paladin and give her strength. It lets her heal the injured, conjure water from nothingness, dowse flames, and drive away Fire creatures. A paladin is so attuned to goodness and the life-giving properties of water that she can detect the presence of evil, destructive fire creatures at will, and then blast them with quenching elemental power. Finally, her righteousness and dedication draws a mighty steed to accompany her as she roams the world, helping others.
Alignment: Paladins must be neutal good, and they lose the abilities granted to them by the Water Lords if they stray. Additionally, paladins must abide by a strict code of conduct centered on defending the weak and innocent and caring for their needs.
Religion: Because the traditional gods and religions of other campaign worlds have all but faded from memory on Elementia, the paladin’s only religious alliance is to the Water Lords. They are welcomed in all Water temples and frequently associate with Water clerics.
Background: Paladinhood, as it has always been, is a calling. While the paladins of old sought to uphold law and vanquish all forms of evil, the new paladins are more focused on the community. Thus, they tend to find more grass roots recruits for the order among peasant folk of the Water realms. Many young lads look up to the wandering protectors, and seek to squire under them at first opportunity. Others feel the calling after being saved from the brink of destruction by the paladins, and feel an intrinsic need to give back. Whatever a paladin’s beginnings, the key trait all of them begin with is a sense of altruism.
Races: The most common race among paladins is aquatic elves, with humans a close second. The first wavemen were bred by the Water Lords from their loyal aquatic elf stock deep in the sea. As the currents took them further and further inland, more humans joined the order. Recently, as commerce and exchange has brought civility to the lizarfolk tribes, more and more of the enigmatic race have shown up at the paladins’ strongholds, seeking training. These scaly defenders have bolstered the ranks with mighty comrades in arms. Many paladins of the deep sea are also merfolk, locathah and tritons, waging an internal war with the xenophobic, bloodthirsty Sahuagin, deep beneath the blue surface.
GAME RULE INFORMATION:
Water Variant Paladins have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Charisma is central to a water paladin’s identity as communal defender. It enhances their healing power, and aids in their fire turning abilities. Strength increases their melee combat power, and wisdom affects their spell-casting ability.
Alignment: Neutral good
Hit die: (Normal) d10
Class Skills:
The Water Variant Paladin’s class skills are as a normal paladin except Knowledge (Geography) replaces Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)
Skill Points: (Normal) 2+Int modifier
CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of the Water Variant Paladin.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: (Normal), plus they are proficient in the exotic armors of the Water Realms, including Floodsuits (Modified hide armor with water circulation compartments to extend amphibious breathing) and Tojanida shell armor (modified plate armor useful for swimming)
Aura of Good (Ex): (Normal), plus the their aura can be detected by any effect that detects the (Water) subtype
Detect Evil (Sp): (Normal), as the spell, plus can detect creatures of the (Fire) subtype, as well as non-typed supporter of the Fire Lords (Such as orcs). The paladin must specify whether detecting evil or detecting fire when activating the ability
Smite Fire (Su): While a Water Variant Paladin may detect evil creatures, he cannot smite them as paladins of the Old Gods once did. Instead, the Smiting Powers of Water Variant Paladins must be used against (Fire) subtype creatures, or non-typed Fire worshippers (orcs, goblins humans, etc. of the Fire Realms). This is similar to the Elemental Smiting feat in Complete Divine, but doesn’t require a turn attempt. Instead it follows the use/day rules of a normal paladin’s smiting. As with normal paladins, if a smite attempt is used on a non-Fire creature, it is wasted.
Lay on Hands (Su): This functions as a Normal paladin’s, but its effects stem partially from the life-giving properties of water, as well as some connection to positive channeling. The effect typically appears to be a coalescing of mist over the wounded area where the paladin touches with the cool mists healing damage. Because Water Variant Clerics are only partially skilled in channeling Positive energies, the lay on hands ability cannot harm undead, but can be used to harm creatures of the Outsider (Fire), or Elemental (Fire) types, but not non-typed Fire creatures, such as orcs, or native (Fire) subtyped creatures such as dragons, fire giants or pyrohydras.
Divine Grace (Su) (Normal)
Aura of Courage (Su) (Normal)
Turn Fire / Rebuke Water (Su): Water Variant Paladins are not proficient enough in positive energy channeling to turn undead (which are near extinct on the campaign world of Elementia). Instead, this ability functions as a normal paladins would for undead (i.e. turning level equals paladin level minus three), but is used as the Water Domain granted power to affect both (Fire) subtype creatures and (Water) subtype creatures. This ability does not affect non-typed creatures.
Spells: (Normal), but different spell list, see below.
Special Mount (Sp): (Normal), but if the Water Variant Paladin waits until 6th level, they can call a Large Shark instead of a warhorse, and if they wait until 7th level, they can call a Sea Cat.
Create Water (Sp): At 3rd level the Water Variant Paladin can Create Water, as the spell, as a spell-like ability 1/day. This increases 1/day every three levels afterwards (2/day at 6th, 3/day at 9th, etc.), becoming at will upon 18th level.
Quench (Sp): This ability functions as the spell and replaces the Remove Disease ability of normal paladins.
Code of Conduct: A Water Variant Paladin must be Neutral Good, believing in the needs of the community over herself. She loses all class abilities if she willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a Water Variant Paladin’s code of honor requires that she act with honor and integrity, lift the downtrodden, slake the thirst and feed the hunger of the needy, and oppose the destructive forces of Fire in any way in her power.
Associates: In addition to not tolerating evil beings, Water Variant Paladins may not associate with chaotic Fire creatures, because these usually succumb to Fire’s destructive nature. A water paladin can tolerate, but not necessarily trust, lawful or neutral fire creatures (Such as azers or some fire-worshipping humans).
Spell List:
1st Level
Bless
Bless Water
Bless Weapon
Create Water
Cure Light Wounds
Detect Poison
Endure Elements
Protection from Evil
Obscuring Mist
Purify Food and Water
Read Magic
Resistance
Restoration, Lesser
Virtue
Divine Sacrifice (Complete Divine)
Golden Barding (CD)
Resurgence (CD)
Traveler’s Mount (CD)
Sweet Water (3.0 Defenders of the Faith, 3.5 version anywhere?)
2nd Level
Delay Poison
Eagle’s Splendor
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy (Fire/Cold only)
Shield Other
Zone of Truth
Fog Cloud
Chill Metal
Divine Zephyr (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
Knife Spray (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
Creeping Cold (CD)
Zeal(CD)
Lesser Cold Orb (3.0 Tome and Blood, 3.5?)
3rd Level
Create Food and Water
Cure Moderate Wounds
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Discern Lies
Dispel Magic
Heal Mount
Prayer
Remove Curse
Water Breathing
Magic Circle Against Evil
Resurgence, Mass (CD)
Sword Stream (3.0 DoF, 3.5?)
4th Level
Break Enchantment
Cure Serious Wounds
Holy Sword
Mark of Justice
Neutralize Poison
Restoration
Control Water
Quench
Dispel Evil
Revenance (CD)
Sacred Haven (CD)
Spiritual Chariot (CD)
Mass Resist Energy (3.0 T&B, 3.5?)
Waterball (3.0 Masters of the Wild, 3.5?)
Phwew! Ok! Fire away your thoughts!
Last edited:
Very nicely done. Abilities look quite good too.
