Water/Aquatic Paladin Build - Plz help

[Nyaricus]

Well thanks for the praise. I'm really appreciating that people find it both useful and a fresh idea. I hope they thrive in the campaign worlds you're dropping them into. As for your suggestions, all good stuff. Exactly the rules-lawyering kind of advice I was seeking.

No problem for the praise, suggestions or the rules-lawyering. This is a wicked idea, and you give it a nice niche to fill with alot of flavour to boot. Wicked Pally!!

There are no "regular" paladins in my campaign world, I designed these to replace them.

Ah. Well, i was assuming that there were in fatc regular paladins. In that case, are you still going with Lawful Good as their alignment?? I'd haev to call you on that, and give them Neutral Good, given what i have been reading about your campaign.

So while this replacement paladin doesn't need to detect evil to find Priests of Nerull or Pit Fiends, as champions of the Water plane, hunting whatever evil there is on the Material Plane would not necessearily limit it to Fire creatures. Fire villains just happen to be the most diametrically opposed to their cause. That's why I wanted to keep some aura of goodness about them and let them detect any evil, because while vanquishing Fire is their primary charge, their communities may not only be attacked by Fire baddies.

about this, and the other part of your post which basically says Plane of Fire = Evil; i am a bit confused. The way i am getting this is that if most evil creatures deal with fire guys (ie orcs IYC, demons, devils, elementals, etc) why should this paladin be able to Detect any type of evil?? Since you are so closely tie certain classes to elements, IMHO you paladin should only be able to detect Fire creatures. You stated yourself that [/]your[/i] Ocean Paladin is not a standard Paladin; but in this case i think you fail to differentiate between the two. Just my thoughts on that, but if you find a weakness in my arguament, feel free to debate it. I don't mind, i like helping people

Divine Grace stays in. I had been teetering on whether that's too much, but if someone else doesn't think so, I'm inclined to leave it.

there sitn really a replacement that would be appropriate for this; besides, it really fits the concept of a divine knight character (at least a high fanatsy one). Definitly keep it.

Quench = Remove Disease one-for-one makes sense, as does Divine Health for Create Water

yeah, it was just a matter of look it all up; i should not for this that Quench does A LOT of potential dmaage to fire elementals; which is why . . . . (read below)

Also, I'm still feeling giving them the direct damage spells should have a trade-off somewhere, because that gives them some more utility. I'll wait and see how other people weigh in on Divine Courage before I make a final call.

you may want to down the damage dealing spells a bit. Quench can only be used a few times a week, but it can do soemthing like 15d6 at 15th level (i am not sure how'd this would work exactly wit the paladin, since the Druid'd spell quench is designed for a full catser, and the paladin is a secondary caster, but w/e; just specifics).

Still, you wouldn't want to take away from the Evokers or Sorcerers (if they were a damage-dealing build) roles. I'd just go through and take away the ones that are obviously a bit too powerful to ahve. Ugh, unfortunately, i am not that good with spell balance, so suggestions for exact balance won't be comeing from me. :S sorry.

Now Divine Courage I'm still teetering on. I'd be more inclined to leave the Aura of Good and Detect Evil parts as alignment-based for the above reasons than I'd be to cancel fear affects.

Keep it for now; it keep the balacne of this class intact. When you find a satisfactory swap for it, then switch it in.

An overall good analysis though, and I appreciate the time you took. Thanks, and I hope to get more responses like yours.

Again, no problem; i will prolly follow through with this thread till it's officially balanced > like i said, i LOVE this class, so i'll be glad to help out so long as it is needed.

 

[DamionW]

Ah. Well, i was assuming that there were in fatc regular paladins. In that case, are you still going with Lawful Good as their alignment?? I'd haev to call you on that, and give them Neutral Good, given what i have been reading about your campaign.

Yeah, I wasn't sure either, if you notice in the first post, right before the flavor text I commented on that. The only things that keep me from switching to NG are 1) As a community keystone, he'd believe in some amount of order and needs of all outweighing needs of few, that seems lawful. 2) While not having the same zeal for society's law like standard paladins, they're still honest, upright people, and how do you enforce their code of discipline if not lawful? I could see players that bend their code slightly saying their NG aspect leads to a "ends justify the means" approach.

about this, and the other part of your post which basically says Plane of Fire = Evil; i am a bit confused. The way i am getting this is that if most evil creatures deal with fire guys (ie orcs IYC, demons, devils, elementals, etc) why should this paladin be able to Detect any type of evil?? Since you are so closely tie certain classes to elements, IMHO you paladin should only be able to detect Fire creatures. You stated yourself that [/]your[/i] Ocean Paladin is not a standard Paladin; but in this case i think you fail to differentiate between the two. Just my thoughts on that, but if you find a weakness in my arguament, feel free to debate it. I don't mind, i like helping people

Well, let me frame it for you this way. In a standard DnD World, a Paladin of Heironeous could use Detect Evil to find a self-serving head of the thieves guild, a shadowy assassin waiting in the wings to harm the party, or a goblin raiding party pillaging a village. He can detect them because his paladin roles require him to stop them from hurting the weak. Now when it comes to Undead and extraplanar evil creatures, like demons and devils, he detects stronger auras because Heironeous has a special charge for him to oppose them wherever they are because they are the physical embodiment of evil forces.

On my campaign world, the good forces of the Water plane have charged paladins with upholding good ideals and defending the weak. They should be able to detect the Halfling Wind thief that is raiding the villagers' treasury, or a black dragon lurking in the swamps, or a Sauhagin tribe on the rampage. None of these are Fire creatures, but they represent a threat to his community. When it DOES come to Fire creatures, they have a stronger aura to detect for the paladin, because they are extraplanar embodiments of all that is opposed to the Water Lords. That is the dichotomy that says to me he should be able to Detect Evil and Detect Fire. Fire doesn't fully equal evil, and Water isn't totally good. It's just that each "lean" towards that respective alignment and Paladins are the embodiment of the goodness of water.

you may want to down the damage dealing spells a bit. Quench can only be used a few times a week, but it can do soemthing like 15d6 at 15th level (i am not sure how'd this would work exactly wit the paladin, since the Druid'd spell quench is designed for a full catser, and the paladin is a secondary caster, but w/e; just specifics).

Quench and Create Water would function at half Paladin level for caster level, like all of his spells.

Still, you wouldn't want to take away from the Evokers or Sorcerers (if they were a damage-dealing build) roles. I'd just go through and take away the ones that are obviously a bit too powerful to ahve. Ugh, unfortunately, i am not that good with spell balance, so suggestions for exact balance won't be comeing from me. :S sorry.

Well, elemental clerics and their secondary casters (rangers and paladins) are the primary damage dealers in this campaign world. Arcane magic has been declared heresy by society because it either falls outside of the natural spectrum of the 4 elements, or steals energy from them without consent of the Elemental Lords. So most parties won't have casters to be outshined by the Paladin's few offensive spells. I just see them as being the righteous, vengeful spirits of water. I don't see why they shouldn't be able to use the few low-level offensive water-related spells there are.

Again, no problem; i will prolly follow through with this thread till it's officially balanced > like i said, i LOVE this class, so i'll be glad to help out so long as it is needed.

Well, let me know what you think of what I brought up here. I hope one or two more weigh in with their suggestions so we can get a consensus as to where the Paladin lies. Then I can move on to my Windstalker (Air/desert variant Ranger).

 

[Thia Halmades]

*yawn, smack* Oh, hey, a cool thread. *downs more coffee* Right.

Coming from a place that rewards imagination and occassionally gets nerfed by my own Pocket Rules Lawyer (only $295.99, order yours today!) I'll slice through some of the detritus here and get to the core question. That question is: Does this work?

Answer! Yep. First, I will say it is an excellent build and an excellent design. Fielding elements as alignment based is a classic Pagan idea and this adaptation seems to reflect that very well. Things I'd like to understand better -

Question One: Define "fire" as "evil." Evil as in it needs to eat? Evil as in that's just how it is? Evil as in its misunderstood? Or is it not evil and simply opposed by water? You might find it more interesting to toss the usual assumptions regarding Good & Evil and allow the elements themselves to do the guiding; Water opposes Fire. That's just the way it is. This would fundamentally change the alignment structure from a pure moralistic bent to something more fluid and adaptable to your campaign. You may also add an element structure (LGF, Lawful Good Fire) which is a personality reflection.

Question Two: You've redefined Paladins as Water. Very, very cool, by the way. I think you may have knocked out one too many key Paladin abilities, such as Divine Grace (add CHA to saving throws) which particularly stood out to me, and honor code. The reason I posed question one is because question two is: What makes Paladins special? In a normal D&D setting, they're LG soldiers of a higher cause/power, whether for the church or by personality. If they stray from that path, they lose their status and become Fighters. Do you have a similar sword you're planning on holding over their heads, or is their status much less tenuous? In which case, I would yield that the removal of those abilities makes more sense (as the path is less strict). From your post I get the impression that you're still with that; if you're going to enforce the Code, and you're maintaining their general flavor, but from a Water-Centric standpoint, then I would suggest doing a straight swap of Fire for Evil, and adding Domain spells to their list (Water, Ice, etc.).

Question Three: You outlawed Elemental magic; what about non-elemental? IMC, Necromancy is outlawed; specifically, those spells dealing with the trading of life forces, but rather than create a distinction they just cut the whole thing out. Not all spells are elemental; if someone were to cast a Conj/Summ (such as a Cleric) would they have permission to call forth a Sea Lion? Or a Dust Devil? You'll probably want to rebuild your summon list to make it work in tune with your design.

So Fireball is evil, is Magic Missile? Another variant on this question, let's say magic is heresey; is it still out there? Could a PC opt to play a Heretic who's very careful in their spell selection? Or a Sorcerer who specializes in elementally neutral spells? Divinations, Abjurations, Colorless Evocations? Enchantment/Charms? Would the populace notice the difference between a Cleric casting Charm and a Sorceror casting Charm? Where is the line between Divine and Arcane? Are these two factions at war (thus installing another element to your elemental conflict?) What if they just want to flip the bird to the Elemental Lords themselves and say "Stop me, I dare you?"

Question Four: How involved are the Elemental Lords? Would they send messengers (see Monster Manual I) to directly intervene? Are they High Fantasy, hands on like Forgotten Realms deities, or more laid back and 'wait and see' granting spells from beyond the veil and using their people as pawns in a higher struggle we mere mortals can't witness?

 

[DamionW]

*yawn, smack* Oh, hey, a cool thread. *downs more coffee* Right.

Coming from a place that rewards imagination and occassionally gets nerfed by my own Pocket Rules Lawyer (only $295.99, order yours today!) I'll slice through some of the detritus here and get to the core question. That question is: Does this work?

Answer! Yep. First, I will say it is an excellent build and an excellent design. Fielding elements as alignment based is a classic Pagan idea and this adaptation seems to reflect that very well. Things I'd like to understand better -

Hi Thia, thanks for the input! Let me try and answer your questions:

Question One: Define "fire" as "evil." Evil as in it needs to eat? Evil as in that's just how it is? Evil as in its misunderstood? Or is it not evil and simply opposed by water? You might find it more interesting to toss the usual assumptions regarding Good & Evil and allow the elements themselves to do the guiding; Water opposes Fire. That's just the way it is. This would fundamentally change the alignment structure from a pure moralistic bent to something more fluid and adaptable to your campaign. You may also add an element structure (LGF, Lawful Good Fire) which is a personality reflection.

Answer1: I tried to stipulate that the setting implies less that alignments are linked to a certain element, but more elements are opposed to certain alignments. If you look in the middle of post #9, you'll see the overall cosmology for this campaign world. It could be represented as a spectrum:

INWARD Inner (Elemental) Planes <-- Ethereal Plane -- Material Plane (U R Here) -- Astral Plane --> Outer Planes OUTWARD

Now, due to an ancient cataclysm, the boundary provided by the Ethereal Plane got shredded and the Material Plane got shifted INWARD on this spectrum, leaning more towards the Elemental Planes, causing partial fusing and permanent gates to them. To maintain the overall cosmic balance, the Inner Planes took up more alignment traits that were typically reserved for the Outer Planes. However, they didn't become fully polarized, just "leaning" towards a certain extreme.

Fire destroys and consumes life to make itself stronger. That's just what it does. Is this necessarily evil? No, it's simply more "not good." Thus, it took on an evil bent in the cosmology. While Azer societies used to be typically Lawful Neutral, more tyrants and misers started appearing, twisting more towards selfish, evil ends. Are there still good exceptions? Yes, but they've decreased as the plane became less good aligned.

Water cleanses and sustains life. Is this necessarily good? No, it's just "not evil." Thus when the Water Plane collided with the material plane, paladins were drawn to water forces over other elements.

Air disperses into any volume it contains and wind can blow in any direction at any given moment. It isn't as chaotic as Limbo is, but it is definately "not lawful." Thus air leans towards chaos.

Many rocks cleave in straight edges and crystals form in regulated, regimented structures. Is this as ordered as the Inevitables and Formians of Mechanus? No, but it's "not chaotic." Thus Earth leans toward law.

Question Two: You've redefined Paladins as Water. Very, very cool, by the way. I think you may have knocked out one too many key Paladin abilities, such as Divine Grace (add CHA to saving throws) which particularly stood out to me, and honor code. The reason I posed question one is because question two is: What makes Paladins special? In a normal D&D setting, they're LG soldiers of a higher cause/power, whether for the church or by personality. If they stray from that path, they lose their status and become Fighters. Do you have a similar sword you're planning on holding over their heads, or is their status much less tenuous? In which case, I would yield that the removal of those abilities makes more sense (as the path is less strict). From your post I get the impression that you're still with that; if you're going to enforce the Code, and you're maintaining their general flavor, but from a Water-Centric standpoint, then I would suggest doing a straight swap of Fire for Evil, and adding Domain spells to their list (Water, Ice, etc.).

Answer2: Looking at the exchange with Nyaricus, I've decided to put Divine Grace back in. As for an honor code, there still is one, but it's just different. While old paladins used to be more charged with upholding law and justice, the overriding focus of Water Paladins is defense of the weak and thirsty. So even if he comes on a Fire village where there are Goblins whose well has run dry, he is charged with providing for them and trying to convince them the error of worshipping Fire. If he just put them to the sword because they're filthy goblins, that's a breach of code. As for swapping Evil directly for Fire, look at post #12 to see why there are evil forces that aren't just Fire that the paladin would have to fight against.

Question Three: You outlawed Elemental magic; what about non-elemental? IMC, Necromancy is outlawed; specifically, those spells dealing with the trading of life forces, but rather than create a distinction they just cut the whole thing out. Not all spells are elemental; if someone were to cast a Conj/Summ (such as a Cleric) would they have permission to call forth a Sea Lion? Or a Dust Devil? You'll probably want to rebuild your summon list to make it work in tune with your design.

Answer3: Elemental Magic is not outlawed, it is just now the purview of divine clerics for the Elemental Lords. A Lawful Neutral cleric of Fire could cast a fireball in a party of air and earth characters and not be seen as evil, just following their path. It simply would get the Paladin riled up if any innocents were hurt. On the off-nights in camp, the paladin and the fire-cleric would get in religious debates and the paladin would warn him that he wouldn't hesitate to put them down if they hurt anyone, but Fire in and of itself doesn't equal evil, so the paladin could abide them.

So Fireball is evil, is Magic Missile? Another variant on this question, let's say magic is heresey; is it still out there? Could a PC opt to play a Heretic who's very careful in their spell selection? Or a Sorcerer who specializes in elementally neutral spells? Divinations, Abjurations, Colorless Evocations? Enchantment/Charms? Would the populace notice the difference between a Cleric casting Charm and a Sorceror casting Charm? Where is the line between Divine and Arcane? Are these two factions at war (thus installing another element to your elemental conflict?) What if they just want to flip the bird to the Elemental Lords themselves and say "Stop me, I dare you?"

As stated above, a Fireball isn't evil, it just comes from forces which are generally not good. A good person could use Fire magic, but the temptation to use it for evil ends is strong. Magic Missle on the other hand is Arcane magic. Arcane magic has become so far outside of the natural order of the four elements that it is virtually outlawed and shun. Wizards and Sorcerers are meddling with sources of power that normal mortals have deemed unfit to meddle with. Overall, you would have to see how I divided divine spells to better understand the situation, but that's a separate thread. Basically, Earth gains spells dealing with metal, rock, and strength. Air gets spells dealing with wind, lightning, and divinations (the sky is above, seeing all). Fire gets spells dealing with flames and courage (burning with inner fire). Water spells deal with water, cold, and poison (being generally liquid based). All clerics by the nature of their faith and devotion gain some amount of healing/harming magic and positive/negative energy channeling, just not in the same level old clerics used to.

One of the plot arcs in the campaign will be how Arcane magic users begin "flipping off" the elemental lords and trying to revert society back to the way it was. The problem is, the Elemental Forces will be focused on their internal conflicts to notice until it's too late.

Question Four: How involved are the Elemental Lords? Would they send messengers (see Monster Manual I) to directly intervene? Are they High Fantasy, hands on like Forgotten Realms deities, or more laid back and 'wait and see' granting spells from beyond the veil and using their people as pawns in a higher struggle we mere mortals can't witness?

Answer4: The Elemental Lords are very hands on, but less personified than regular deity. Wind doesn't have a face the way that Pelor does. It just IS and it speaks to worshippers that listen. However, the Material Plane has become the fundamental battleground for these lords. The Earth Lords grow mountain ranges for now other reason to start a windblock. Entire sections of land that were once dry now are tidal plains extending dozens of miles inland from the coast. Other areas have had the wind erode mesas and mountains into deserts. All of the forces are struggling for real estate and for worshippers, because worshippers strenghten them on the actual Inner Planes. So they are very hands on with the societies, but they aren't "humanoid" deities that most people are used to.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Okay, so what I'm hearing is this:

Overarc One: Arcanists are locked in a struggle with Clerics to restore a balance of Arcane/Divine power to an already unbalanced world, thus attempting to shift it back to "normal" before more drastic effects take hold.

Overarc Two: The elements and their personifications are locked in a fundamental struggle of power that, were it not on the PMP, would continue on in a "never be won" scenario; but because the PMP has been violated, the balance is corrupted. This means the arcanists are far more "right" than anyone knows, and the Elemental Lords are more concerned with their personal struggle (dominance) than they have any concern over their new faithful (as a deity who survives on worship would).

Overarc Three: Dealing the doctrine of Fire = Evil, when (ironically) it requires Fire to burn away the past and make room for the future. Fire doesn't just eat, it also cleanses. Water can soothe, it can also drown, buffet and blast. Combinations of these elements (Sand Storms, Hurricanes, Fiery Tornados) would be part of the extension of these ideas as raw forces are now exposed to each other on a fundamental, metaphysical level, violating the very laws that kept them in place.

So your Paladin is going to have a conundrum, because "Law" (if I read this right) is going to be a flowing, changing thing as the world continues to bend. If there's one thing we know scientifically it's that the bits we have here stay pretty well balanced; it seems your extension logic is that imbalance must occur when there isn't an anchor (a properly placed PMP) to hold it all at the appropriate distance. The question of "What do you uphold?" and "What do you defend?" will subsequently be challenged.

You're right, I'd have to see the master list to get a feel for where you're going, but it all sounds excellent and well thought out. I was wondering specifically about the status of Arcane casters, but you answered that question well enough, except for:

How do PC arcanists fit into your world? Legal? Illegal? Legal with a long DM talk about how they gain new spells? How do wizards survive? Sorcerers? Are there inquisitions looking for these people?

Magic items - do old items hold more value than new ones? Are there still the usual +X mechanics, or have they been replaced with more ability-heavy devices (Armor of Healing, Armor of Cleansing, Sword of Burning, Shield of Lightning Resistance)? Would those "old" items, which came prior to the cataclysm, be worth more? Would they be outlawed as well?

What monsters are out there? Do they have an agenda? Is there a larger set of hands attempting to guide events as I believe, based on what you've written, or is there a single entity driving it all and it got out of control?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[DamionW]

Okay, so what I'm hearing is this:

Overarc One: Arcanists are locked in a struggle with Clerics to restore a balance of Arcane/Divine power to an already unbalanced world, thus attempting to shift it back to "normal" before more drastic effects take hold.

Arcanists, working with Clerics of some of the stronger old deities (Pelor, Boccob, Nerull, a few others) whose religions are fading, as well as bards holding on to old oral heritage are all outside of normal society. They've retreated to wintery mountain fortresses and secluded temples and are secretly uniting and trying to subvert the elemental status quo.

Overarc Two: The elements and their personifications are locked in a fundamental struggle of power that, were it not on the PMP, would continue on in a "never be won" scenario; but because the PMP has been violated, the balance is corrupted. This means the arcanists are far more "right" than anyone knows, and the Elemental Lords are more concerned with their personal struggle (dominance) than they have any concern over their new faithful (as a deity who survives on worship would).

Basically, yes. They have some care for their worshippers (Dwarves with Earth Elemental, Xorn and Thoqqua allies to help their digs have become economically more powerful than they ever were before the fusion, for example), but their classic struggles that spilled over from the Inner Planes have prejudices that never will fully heal. For the last few centuries, things had calmed down. The Realms of the Fire Lords have turned into an internal stuggle, where orcs, efreet, salamanders and azers have been fighting for dominance to such an extent that the Water Lords haven't needed to worry about them. The Earth and Air societies still skirmish, but they're not full blown conflicts the way they used to be. Unbeknownst to the PCs, the arcanists are about to tip this scale back into conflict in order to sow distraction for their cause. Meanwhile, they're breeding an army of golems to bolster their ranks.

Overarc Three: Dealing the doctrine of Fire = Evil, when (ironically) it requires Fire to burn away the past and make room for the future. Fire doesn't just eat, it also cleanses. Water can soothe, it can also drown, buffet and blast. Combinations of these elements (Sand Storms, Hurricanes, Fiery Tornados) would be part of the extension of these ideas as raw forces are now exposed to each other on a fundamental, metaphysical level, violating the very laws that kept them in place.

So your Paladin is going to have a conundrum, because "Law" (if I read this right) is going to be a flowing, changing thing as the world continues to bend. If there's one thing we know scientifically it's that the bits we have here stay pretty well balanced; it seems your extension logic is that imbalance must occur when there isn't an anchor (a properly placed PMP) to hold it all at the appropriate distance. The question of "What do you uphold?" and "What do you defend?" will subsequently be challenged.

Fire can cleanse, and water can drown, I am just choosing (call it designer fiat) to have them focus away from those properties. Call it a spin, but not a change. As for what the paladin upholds, he upholds creation against destruction, and he defends those too weak to defend themselves.

You're right, I'd have to see the master list to get a feel for where you're going, but it all sounds excellent and well thought out. I was wondering specifically about the status of Arcane casters, but you answered that question well enough, except for:

How do PC arcanists fit into your world? Legal? Illegal? Legal with a long DM talk about how they gain new spells? How do wizards survive? Sorcerers? Are there inquisitions looking for these people?

Players will be told by the DM the stigma attached to Arcane magic and how if they start casting magic missles, they better have a good cover story. If they're still set on it, then they're free to proceed. However, they're not going to be privy to the plot arcs common to arcane organizations; they'll be freelancers. They'll be hunting old ruins for tomes and scrolls, but they'll have a tough time with it. There aren't active inquisitions. Again, the Elemental Lords are too focused on their traditional conflicts of Fire vs. Water and Earth vs. Air to spur their clerics into an inquisition.

Magic items - do old items hold more value than new ones? Are there still the usual +X mechanics, or have they been replaced with more ability-heavy devices (Armor of Healing, Armor of Cleansing, Sword of Burning, Shield of Lightning Resistance)? Would those "old" items, which came prior to the cataclysm, be worth more? Would they be outlawed as well?

Hadn't decided, but would assume new magic items will be more divine than arcane. There's be +X weapons, but also more elemental abilities. As for relative values, would think useful items are useful items to adventurers, but commonfolk would look less kindly upon old arcane items, wondering how they got them.

What monsters are out there? Do they have an agenda? Is there a larger set of hands attempting to guide events as I believe, based on what you've written, or is there a single entity driving it all and it got out of control?

LCpt. Thia Halmades

As for monsters, there will be a subset of the typical ones from the monster manual, especially those who could fit an elemental bent (aquatic ones in the water realms, flying ones in the wind lands, subterranean ones in the earth digs, and fire subtypes in the fire lands), as well as an influx of Inner Plane immigrants (many genies, elementals freely walking the world without being summoned, etc.). Their agenda is as it usually is, to either just survive or hoard power and treasure. They simply will be doing it in a drastically different environment.

As for hands driving it, each group/culture is going to drive it as they see fit. There was no single entity running the show, it was a set of interests clashing themselves. That's the overall view of the world.

 

[DamionW]

How about the spell lists? Does anyone have an opinion of those? Are some of the 3.0 spells in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer (which I don't have yet), or were they dropped in the revision? Is there anything inherently unbalanced about the idea of a paladin with some direct damage spells? I'd like some feedback on that if anyone has any.

 

[Nyaricus]

How about the spell lists? Does anyone have an opinion of those? Are some of the 3.0 spells in Complete Arcane or Complete Adventurer (which I don't have yet), or were they dropped in the revision? Is there anything inherently unbalanced about the idea of a paladin with some direct damage spells? I'd like some feedback on that if anyone has any.

i dont have my buddies copy of complete Arcane, but i sifted thoruhg Players Guide to Faerun and Complete Adventurer. heres what i found.
Sweet Water (3.0 DoF, 3.5 version anywhere?) didnt find it
Divine Zephyr (3.0 DoF, 3.5?) another familiar sounding one, but i cant find it.
Knife Spray (3.0 DoF, 3.5?) theres a spell called Thorn Spray (in Players Guide to Faerun) which may be a varient of Knife Speay, but i dont have DoF for refernce.
Lesser Cold Orb (3.0 Tome and Blood, 3.5?) i am sure i saw this in some other book . . .
Sword Stream (3.0 DoF, 3.5?) didnt find it
Mass Resist Energy (3.0 T&B, 3.5?) didnt find it
Waterball (3.0 Masters of the Wild, 3.5?) just treat it as a fireball that does hmmm. Perhaps, rename it "Snowball" and make it do Cold Damage. theres a feat to change energy type in Magic of Faerun (it was originally introduced there), so this isnt unbalanced.


as for your question on balance and damage dealing spells, i gotta say that you should limit them, like i did before. Dont nerf the Sorcerer or Evoker classes. While you are not truely doing this, it is still stepping on their toes, and thats not the best idea. just my 2 cents CAN

 

[Thia Halmades]

Does Snilloc's Snowball still exist? May be in Mag. of Faerun, if anywhere. Also check the Oriental Adventures books for element-based casting. The list itself looks fine to me, but that isn't my strength as a DM, so I'll leave that to minds better geared towards that sort of thing. However; get your mitts on as many splat books as possible, and specifically the ones I mentioned.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

 

[DamionW]

Does Snilloc's Snowball still exist? May be in Mag. of Faerun, if anywhere. Also check the Oriental Adventures books for element-based casting. The list itself looks fine to me, but that isn't my strength as a DM, so I'll leave that to minds better geared towards that sort of thing. However; get your mitts on as many splat books as possible, and specifically the ones I mentioned.

LCpt. Thia Halmades

Yeah, getting loads of splat books would be ideal, but more of an investment than I'm willing to make on this campaign design. I'm more inclined to simply allow players to approach me with elemental based spells and adjudicate case-by-case whether their clerics/paladins can cast them than to try and hunt every spell out of every splat book. I'm using some of the shugenja spell lists as guidance from complete divine, but I have to cut out the flavor and expand it because water clerics in my game don't have access to air and earth spells just because they're not opposed to water. It's a hard balancing act, but it's something I want to work on.