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Project - Traditional Giant
Conaill suggested in the Giant by Poll threads that we should stat up a Gargantuan-sized traditional giant before moving on to more exotic things. Since we'd already decided on a few things (twilight, river associations, etc.) that make our other giant less traditional, let's hammer this one out real quick.
Brobdingnagian
Gargantuan Giant
Hit Dice: 24d8+240 (348 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (–4 size, -1 Dex, +20 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Greatclub +29 melee (4d8+21) or slam +28 melee (1d8+14) or rock +14 ranged (4d6+14)
Full Attack: Greatclub +29/+24 melee (4d8+21) or 2 slams +28 melee (1d8+14) or rock +14 ranged (4d6+14)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Fling, rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, rock catching, scent
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +7, Will +10
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 8 , Con 30, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Jump +27, Listen +13, Spot +13
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +5
What appears to be a massive human lumbers forth, each step shaking the ground with its great weight.
Brobdingnagians are greedy, selfish brutes found in nearly any climate.
Their skin coloration ranges from light tan to dark brown, with hair of nearly any color found in humans. Most wear hides and furs, though some wear clothing reminscent to human commoners.
Adults are about 30 feet tall and weigh about 30,000 pounds. Brobdingnagians can live to be 400 years old.
A brobdingnagian’s bag usually contains 2d6 throwing rocks, 1d4+3 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These possessions tend to be broken or in disrepair.
Combat
Brobdingnagians prefer to smash opponents and objects with massive clubs and beefy fists. A brobdingnagian generally employs 10-point Power Attack. If it can't hit its foes, it will generally drop down to 5 points the next round; if it hits easily, it will use full Power Attack in following rounds. A brobdingnagian also enjoys sundering weapons and defensive structures.
Fling (Ex): A brobdingnagian who sucessfully grapples a foe two or more size categories smaller than itself can hurl the creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6 points of damage. A creature that is flung off a mountain or other great height takes this amount of damage or the appropriate falling damage, whichever is greater. The brobdingnagian also can throw the flung creature as though it were a boulder. In this case, the flung creature takes 12d6+14 points of damage, and any opponent it strikes takes 4d6+14 points of damage.
Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 140 feet for a Gargantuan brobdingnagian’s thrown rocks. Adult brobdingnagians are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A brobdingnagian can hurl rocks weighing 80 to 160 pounds each (Large objects) up to five range increments.
Rock Catching (Ex): A Gargantuan brobdingnagian can catch rocks (or projectiles of similar shape) of up to Gargantuan size. Once per round, a brobdingnagian that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for Medium, 25 for Large, 30 for Huge, and 35 for a Gargantuan one (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The brobdingnagian must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.
Brobdingnagians as Characters
Brobdingnagian characters possess the following racial traits.
* +28 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +20 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –4 Charisma.
* Gargantuan size. –4 penalty to Armor Class, –4 penalty on attack rolls, –12 penalty on Hide checks, +12 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits eight times those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 20 feet/20 feet.
* A brobdingnagian's base land speed is 60 feet.
* Low-light vision.
* Racial Hit Dice: A brobdingnagian begins with 24 levels of giant, which provide 24d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +18, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +14, Ref +8, and Will +8.
* Racial Skills: A brobdingnagian's giant levels give it skill points equal to 27 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Jump, Listen, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: A brobdingnagian's giant levels give it nine feats.
* +20 natural armor bonus.
* Special Attacks (see above): Fling, rock throwing.
* Special Qualities (see above): Rock catching, scent.
* Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brobdingnagian is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
* Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +4.
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Old 01-25-06, 09:06 PM #2
Shade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Just so we have a point of reference for Gargantuan-sized giants, I figured I'd see what would happen if I "advanced" the Hill Giant by two size categories, reduced the MM2 Colossal Mountain Giant (resembles "a titanic hill giant") by one size category, and taking the average:
Gargantuan Hill Giant: Str 41, Dex 6 , Con 27, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +16 nat. AC, >12 HD
Gargantuan Mtn Giant: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +24 nat. AC, <30 HD
Avg. Gargantuan Giant: Str 38, Dex 8 , Con 30, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +20 nat. AC, 24 HD?
If we want to (hey, we could have a poll! ) we could adopt these stats whole-hog, and quickly put together a "traditional Gargantuan giant". Once that one is out of the way, we can start some polls for a less traditional giant, which is something I know a number of people here would love to do...
I'm fine with the stats Conaill derived. Any objections?
I've even got a name for this fellow...
Brob·ding·nag·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brbdng-ng-n)
adj.
Immense; enormous.
[After Brobdingnag, a country in Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift, where everything was enormous.]
Whaddya think?
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Old 01-25-06, 10:45 PM #3
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If we do go with 24HD, that would mean a total of 9 feats.
Hill Giant: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Mountain Giant: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Imp. Critical (mountain giant club), Power Attack, Imp. Sunder
The Mountain Giant has too few feats (should have 11 for 30HD), but he does have some additional SQ's as well (Scent, Darkvision, etc.)
Improved Critical just seems cruel, when being attacked with a Gargantuan club or greatclub - ditch that one for the sake of the greater good? Alertness seems to go against the classical fairytales, where people are always sneaking around behind the giant's back. Scent would fit though. Combat reflexes... eh, I think I'd rather have a big. slow brute - doesn't have a Dex bonus anyway. Weapon choice... club would probably work better than greatclub: too hard to find a tree the right size and shape to make a Gargantuan greatclub...
So we get:
1. Cleave
2. Great Cleave
3. Improved Bull Rush
4. Power Attack
5. Improved Sunder
6. Weapon Focus (club)
7-9. Awesome Blow? Improved Unarmed Strike? Improved Overrun? Iron Will?
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Old 01-25-06, 11:12 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
If we do go with 24HD, that would mean a total of 9 feats.
Hill Giant: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Mountain Giant: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Imp. Critical (mountain giant club), Power Attack, Imp. Sunder
The Mountain Giant has too few feats (should have 11 for 30HD), but he does have some additional SQ's as well (Scent, Darkvision, etc.)
Here's the mountain giant's feats per the conversion guide: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (mountain giant club), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Track
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Improved Critical just seems cruel, when being attacked with a Gargantuan club or greatclub - ditch that one for the sake of the greater good? Alertness seems to go against the classical fairytales, where people are always sneaking around behind the giant's back. Scent would fit though. Combat reflexes... eh, I think I'd rather have a big. slow brute - doesn't have a Dex bonus anyway. Weapon choice... club would probably work better than greatclub: too hard to find a tree the right size and shape to make a Gargantuan greatclub...
So we get:
1. Cleave
2. Great Cleave
3. Improved Bull Rush
4. Power Attack
5. Improved Sunder
6. Weapon Focus (club)
7-9. Awesome Blow? Improved Unarmed Strike? Improved Overrun? Iron Will?
I'm fine with 1-6, and would go with Awesome Blow, Iron Will, and Combat Reflexes. Many of the other giants have it, and since its Dex is so low I thiink the point is simply to allow it an Attack of Opportunity while flat-footed.
Also, I'd like to stick with greatclub as many other giants have it, and it is a two-handed weapon which makes it more of a "bat".
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Old 01-25-06, 11:18 PM #5
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Another discussion point for the Brobdingnagian (Great name, BTW. Gygax would be proud ) is the issue of speed/agility/whatever you want to call it. Fairytale giants tend do move a lot slower (not in terms of feet/round, but in actions or attacks per round) than their "hero" opponents. Standard D&D mechanics however links attacks/round to the HD of the critter. In our case, a 24HD giant would mean a BAB of 18, and 3 attacks/round on a full attack.
I see three ways we could deal with this:
1) Interpret "traditional" as "as close an extrapolation from the D&D Hill and Mountain giants as possible". I.e. give him the 3 attacks/round and don't sweat the discrepancy with the non-D&D giant archetype.
2) Slow-moving just means "clumsy", so reduce the Dex. Won't slow down the number of attacks, or his chance to grapple opponents, etc.
3) Radical: tackle the issue head-on, by giving him something like the zombie's "Single Actions Only" quality. No full attacks, but he could still use the "start full-round action" standard action to split a FRA over two rounds.
What do you think?
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Old 01-25-06, 11:21 PM #6
Shade
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I prefer #1, and #2 is pretty much covered already.
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Old 01-25-06, 11:22 PM #7
Conaill
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Thanks for the "conversion guide" changes, Shade! Didn't think to look there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
I'm fine with 1-6, and would go with Awesome Blow, Iron Will, and Combat Reflexes. Many of the other giants have it, and since its Dex is so low I thiink the point is simply to allow it an Attack of Opportunity while flat-footed.
Aw... but I want to be able to run through it's legs when it's flat-footed...
(No seriously! )
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Old 01-26-06, 12:24 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Thanks for the "conversion guide" changes, Shade! Didn't think to look there...
shade is a pro about stuff like that!
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Old 01-26-06, 02:34 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
3) Radical: tackle the issue head-on, by giving him something like the zombie's "Single Actions Only" quality. No full attacks, but he could still use the "start full-round action" standard action to split a FRA over two rounds.
Well, wouldn't you know... the CC's Colossus is a gargantuan giant with the "Partial Actions Only" SQ. Great minds think alike, I guess. (No indication where this one comes from though...)
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Old 01-26-06, 08:23 AM #10
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Spelljammer. and yes, the 2E version had them being so large that they were so slow.
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Old 01-26-06, 03:17 PM #11
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Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that concept, but since this fella is filling the voic between the hill and mountain giants, and neither of them have limited actions, I'd rather not limit this one's actions.
That's what the Colossus is for.
Advancing a hill giant to 24 HD and Gargantuan size would give it CR 12, which might be fine if we give it no other special abilities like the mountain giant possesses.
Note that the storm giant is CR 13 and smaller with 5 less HD, but possesses spell-like, freedom of movement, immunity to electricity, and water breathing. The mountain giant, though listed as CR 26, has been suggested CR 16 by various WOTC designers on the message boards.
I could see maybe bumping it to CR 13, adjusting for any additional special abilities we grant it, if any.
More to discuss...
Speed: Hill giant base speed is 40 ft. Mountain giant base speed is 80 ft. Wanna go with 60 ft.?
Skills: Hill has Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot. Mountain has Jump, Listen, Spot. I'd say Jump, Listen, Spot are definite, Climb is a possibility.
Treasure: Both types have Standard. Sound good for this guy?
Alignment: Hill is often chaotic evil, mountain is usually chaotic. So, shall we go with: often chaotic, often chaotic evil, usually chaotic, or usually chaotic evil?
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Old 01-26-06, 08:32 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that concept, but since this fella is filling the voic between the hill and mountain giants, and neither of them have limited actions, I'd rather not limit this one's actions.
Ok. In that case, I might try push for this for the "Giant by Poll", just 'cause I think it's a cool archetype (and it would fit well with my "Hill That Walks" concept).
I still have a strong preference against Combat Reflexes though...
Quote:
Speed: Hill giant base speed is 40 ft. Mountain giant base speed is 80 ft. Wanna go with 60 ft.?
I think one could argue for either 60 or 70 ft.
Quote:
Skills: Hill has Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot. Mountain has Jump, Listen, Spot. I'd say Jump, Listen, Spot are definite, Climb is a possibility.
At that size, I would favor leaving Climb out. The only think he'd be climbing would be mountains and tall hills, and not even the Mountain giant has Climb...
Quote:
Alignment: Hill is often chaotic evil, mountain is usually chaotic. So, shall we go with: often chaotic, often chaotic evil, usually chaotic, or usually chaotic evil?
Often Chaotic?
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Old 01-26-06, 08:54 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Ok. In that case, I might try push for this for the "Giant by Poll", just 'cause I think it's a cool archetype (and it would fit well with my "Hill That Walks" concept).
Fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
I still have a strong preference against Combat Reflexes though...
That's why I put a question mark by it...I'm hoping someone will "break the tie", so to speak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
I think one could argue for either 60 or 70 ft.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
At that size, I would favor leaving Climb out. The only think he'd be climbing would be mountains and tall hills, and not even the Mountain giant has Climb...
But what about beanstalks?
That's fine with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Often Chaotic?
Sounds good. No reason they have to be evil.
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Old 01-26-06, 10:33 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
But what about beanstalks?
Doh! Got me there...
Then again, IIRC the giant never actually *successfully* climbed down the beanstalk.
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Old 01-26-06, 10:37 PM #15
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Wasn't that because it was cut down?
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Old 01-26-06, 11:10 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Otu
Wasn't that because it was cut down?
True, but we have no reason to believe he would have made it down safely even if it hadn't been cut down.
Besides, if that giant had a decent Climb skill, its higher Speed should have allowed it to catch up with Jack. Clearly, Jack was doing an Accelerated Climb at a -5 penalty to move 1/2 his speed instead of 1/4, while the giant could only manage a Climb DC of 5-9: able to climb a "knotted rope" at 1/4 speed, but not the DC 10 for an Accellerated Climb.
Last edited by Conaill : 01-26-06 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 01-27-06, 02:55 PM #17
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I filled in some of the blanks...how's he looking?
For the attacks, Huge giants have slams that deal 1d6...advancing that one size category gives 1d8. Huge giant's rocks do 2d8, becoming 3d8 at Gargantuan.
Environment: Any?
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
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Old 01-27-06, 08:45 PM #18
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Slam should be 1d8.
Rocks... well, it seem the Giant's rocks don't really follow the normal size progressions. I suspect this is an inconsistency that slipped through the 3.5 cleanup.
Most Large giants have 2d6 rocks, with the exception of the Stone giant who has 2d8. Huge giants seem to use 2d8, even though it should be Large 2d6 -> Huge 3d6 (-> Gargantuan 4d6). The Colossal mountain giant uses 4d8 rocks, which isn't a standard for Colossal weapons. It's closes to 6d6 (Colossal Falchion or Longsword), which would scale down to 4d6 at Gargantuan. (See the "Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage" table, which is much more useful than the "Increased Damage By Size" table.)
Overall, I think 4d6 rocks seem to make most sense. At least it's a standard damage for that size.
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Old 01-27-06, 08:48 PM #19
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1d8 and 4d6 works for me.
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Old 01-27-06, 11:58 PM #20
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Gargantuan greatclub should be 4d8:
1d0 Medium -> 2d8 Large -> 3d8 Huge -> 4d8 Gargantuan
(Or 3d6 for a regular club: 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6)
The Mountain giant uses a non-3.5-standard 4d8 "mountain giant club", a 2-handed weapon which in between a Colossal club (4d6) and greatclub (6d8). That's one reason why I'd prefer something less than a greatclub for the Gargantuian version as well...
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Old 01-30-06, 02:56 PM #21
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Oops! Missed a size category. Thanks for the catch.
I really don't like the "mountain giant" club business...why break the rules when it isn't necessary?
I went with greatclub because the hill, fog, and stone giant use it, whereas none of the giants use a standard club. It's easy enough to swap out in actual play, though.
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Old 01-30-06, 08:19 PM #22
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So what's left?
Does this guy need some additional SA's or SQ's to balance him out? Here are some options from the Mountain Giant we may want to consider:
Special Attacks: Crush, fling, grapple, trample
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent, summon giants
Would any of these improve our current design? I'm strongly opposed to "Summon Giants", but Scent and Trample would definitely make sense. Any other special abilities that are a must-have for a Gargantuan creature? (Swallow Whole perhaps?)
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Old 01-30-06, 08:34 PM #23
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Are you OK with these?
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Yeah, definitely not summon giants. Crush, fling, trample, and scent are all OK, but not essential. Grapple is simply improved grab with a different name.
Of all of them, I like scent and fling the best.
Also, note that fling is essentially the Snatch feat, only we'd need to add a line stating that it may use the Snatch feat with its slam attacks...
Snatch [General]
The creature can grab opponents much smaller than itself and hold them in its mouth or claw.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.
The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.
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Old 01-30-06, 10:37 PM #24
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pretty sure the "mtn giant club" thing came from 3.0, at a time when designers were just not at all sure of what to do with re-sizing weapons. check the update booklet?
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Old 01-30-06, 10:40 PM #25
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Yeah...not changed.
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Old 01-30-06, 10:43 PM #26
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how silly!
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Old 01-30-06, 10:50 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Are you OK with these?
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Sounds good.
Quote:
Of all of them, I like scent and fling the best.
Also, note that fling is essentially the Snatch feat, only we'd need to add a line stating that it may use the Snatch feat with its slam attacks...
Yeah, I had definitely noticed the similarity. I'd prefer not to use Snatch as-is, because of its references to bite attack, holding the opponent in the mouth, and breath weapon. Plus Fling also includes the "throw as though it were a boulder" case. I think we'd be better off just converting Fling instead.
Anyone seen any house rules for throwing opponents in battle somewhere? I thought I had seen some - maybe in Sage rules? Or some 3rd party supplement?
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Old 01-30-06, 10:55 PM #28
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Originally Posted by Shade
Yeah...not changed.
Yeah, not to mention the fact that it explicitly states that the "mountain giant club is the
equivalent of a heavy mace sized for a Colossal creature; damage is correct (4d8+24)."
Of course, a Colossal heavy mace would do 6d6 damage, not 4d8...
(The update booklet also gives the Forest giant a Huge greatclub at 4d8 - should be 4d6.)
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Old 02-01-06, 03:10 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Anyone seen any house rules for throwing opponents in battle somewhere? I thought I had seen some - maybe in Sage rules? Or some 3rd party supplement?
Dunno, but we can just use fling from mountain giant to keep it consistent.
Updated. Should we reduce the fling distance/damage?
Range increment of thrown rocks? Most Large giants have 120, Huge giants 180, and the only Colossal one doesn't list it. How about 240?
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Old 02-01-06, 11:44 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Should we reduce the fling distance/damage?
Range increment of thrown rocks? Most Large giants have 120, Huge giants 180, and the only Colossal one doesn't list it. How about 240?
Definitely need to adjust the fling distance/damage. For the mountain giant, damage to the target is the same as a thrown rock (4d8+16, would be 4d6+14 in our case). Damage to the throwee is 12d6+16 - not sure where they got that number, but I'm guessing it may be the falling damage for its range (120 ft x 1d6/10ft) plus the ranged attack damage bonus. Let's wait till we decide on a rock range increment first... (By the way, does "can throw the flung creature as a boulder" mean you can get up to 5 range increments in that case, instead of a fixed 120 ft cutoff??)
Which Huge giants have 180 ft range increment? Cloud has 140 ft, Storm doesn't do rocks, Forest, Ocean and Sun all have 120 ft. I don't have MM3 - any giants in there?
By the way, I think the rock atttack roll should be 18 BAB -4 size -1 Dex +1 Rock Throwing bonus = 14 (says +8 right now)
Bit more language to fold in:
Quote:
Rock Throwing (Ex)
Adult giants are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A giant of at least Gargantuan size can hurl rocks weighing 80 to 160 pounds each (Large objects) up to five range increments.
Rock Catching (Ex)
A Gargantuan giant can catch rocks (or projectiles of similar shape) of up to Gargantuan size.
Once per round, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for Medium, 25 for Large, 30 for Huge, and 35 for a Gargantuan one (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.
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Old 02-02-06, 03:28 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Definitely need to adjust the fling distance/damage. For the mountain giant, damage to the target is the same as a thrown rock (4d8+16, would be 4d6+14 in our case).
I already fixed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Damage to the throwee is 12d6+16 - not sure where they got that number, but I'm guessing it may be the falling damage for its range (120 ft x 1d6/10ft) plus the ranged attack damage bonus. Let's wait till we decide on a rock range increment first... (By the way, does "can throw the flung creature as a boulder" mean you can get up to 5 range increments in that case, instead of a fixed 120 ft cutoff??)
I believe your formula is correct, and I think it is limited to flinging a foe 120 feet total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Which Huge giants have 180 ft range increment? Cloud has 140 ft, Storm doesn't do rocks, Forest, Ocean and Sun all have 120 ft. I don't have MM3 - any giants in there?
Funny...I went by the stone giant, the only one you didn't mention.
It looks like Huge giants range from 120 ft. up to 180 ft. (stone). The fog giant's is 140 ft.. and the geriviar (MM3) is 160 ft. So I suppose it is whatever we'd like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
By the way, I think the rock atttack roll should be 18 BAB -4 size -1 Dex +1 Rock Throwing bonus = 14 (says +8 right now)
You are correct!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Bit more language to fold in:
I skipped it since it appears to be one of those "see the main giant entry" types of things.
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Old 02-02-06, 05:38 PM #32
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Originally Posted by Shade
Funny...I went by the stone giant, the only one you didn't mention.
Maybe because it's Large, not Huge, and because it's a special case when it comes to Rock Throwing (the only one that's listed as using *both* hands to throw)?
So it sounds like for the Huge giants we have 3 at 120 ft, 2 at 140, and one at 160 ft. I have a hunch that they intended 120 Ft for the Mountain giant, so let's not go up too far. How about 140ft for our guy?
Quote:
I skipped it since it appears to be one of those "see the main giant entry" types of things.
Yeah, but it does have some info that is *not* in the main entry - in particular, the rock weight and catching DC for a gargantuan giant.
(How the heck do they expect these giants to catch *any* rocks anyway? Best Reflex save in the bunch is a +8... good luck catching a DC25 or DC30 rock...)
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Old 02-02-06, 05:56 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Maybe because it's Large, not Huge, and because it's a special case when it comes to Rock Throwing (the only one that's listed as using *both* hands to throw)?
So it sounds like for the Huge giants we have 3 at 120 ft, 2 at 140, and one at 160 ft. I have a hunch that they intended 120 Ft for the Mountain giant, so let's not go up too far. How about 140ft for our guy?
Oops...I think I was looking at the stone giant elder.
140 feet sounds good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Yeah, but it does have some info that is *not* in the main entry - in particular, the rock weight and catching DC for a gargantuan giant.
OK, we can work that in then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
(How the heck do they expect these giants to catch *any* rocks anyway? Best Reflex save in the bunch is a +8... good luck catching a DC25 or DC30 rock...)
The ol' "5% rule" (roll a natural 20).
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Old 02-02-06, 10:39 PM #34
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Originally Posted by Shade
The ol' "5% rule" (roll a natural 20).
\imagines two giants lobbing rocks back and forth, just for fun...
A: "Catch!"
B: BAM! "Ouf... just slipped out of my fingers, that one. Coming back at you..."
A: CRASH! "Ugh... straight.. into.. belly... Catch... breath..."
"Ok, better now... Curve ball!"
B: SMACK! "... lookatiprettyburdies..."
A: "Good thing we got that Rock Catching, huh? Someone could get pretty hurt doing this!"
B: "Hey, ever wonder why I can only 'fling' this halfling here <fling> for 6 paces, yet if I grab this 500 lb ogre here <grab> and pretend he's a rock, I can throw five times that far? Heck, if he were a rock, I wouldn't even be able to throw him!"
A: "What's with the questions? Keep that rock moving, will ya!"
B: "Fine, here ya go!"
A: "Ooh, I got a good feeling about this one..."
SLAM!!
Last edited by Conaill : 02-02-06 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 02-02-06, 10:53 PM #35
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Ain't that the truth?
Like most D&D rules, reality is checked at the door.
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Old 02-09-06, 03:29 PM #36
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We need to work on the contents of its giant's bag. Some examples...
A hill giant's bag usually contains 2d4 throwing rocks, 1d4+4 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These possessions tend to be well worn, filthy, and stinky. The items are usually crude and often jury-rigged or salvaged from some similar item. Examples include a hand chopper made from a broken battleaxe head, a wooden bowl and spoon, or a drinking cup made from a big gourd or a skull.
A frost giant's bag usually contains 1d4+1 throwing rocks, 3d4 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. Everything in a frost giant's bag is old, worn, dirty, and smelly, making the identification of any valuable items difficult.
A typical fire giant's bag contains 1d4+1 throwing rocks, 3d4 mundane items, a tinderbox, and the giant's personal wealth. Everything a fire giant owns is battered, dirty, and often singed by heat.
A stone giant's bag usually contains 2d12 throwing rocks, 1d4+6 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. A stone giant's possessions are neither particularly clean nor particularly dirty, but most of them are made from stone.
A mountain giant's bag contains 3d4 rocks, 1d4+2 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These items tend to be humanoid artifacts that the mountain giant considers playthings, such as broken wagons, small huts, and furniture, including tables and beds.
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Old 02-09-06, 04:37 PM #37
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2d6 rocks and 1d4+3 mundane items sounds about right.
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Old 02-09-06, 11:19 PM #38
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That works for me.
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Old 02-21-06, 03:45 PM #39
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A Colossal mountain giant is 40 feet tall and weighs nearly 50,000 pounds.
A Huge storm giant is about 21 feet tall and weighs about 12,000 pounds.
So, shall our Gargantuan fella be about 30 feet tall and weigh around 30,000 pounds?
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Old 02-21-06, 04:17 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
So, shall our Gargantuan fella be about 30 feet tall and weigh around 30,000 pounds?
Seems reasonable.
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Project - Traditional Giant
Conaill suggested in the Giant by Poll threads that we should stat up a Gargantuan-sized traditional giant before moving on to more exotic things. Since we'd already decided on a few things (twilight, river associations, etc.) that make our other giant less traditional, let's hammer this one out real quick.
Brobdingnagian
Gargantuan Giant
Hit Dice: 24d8+240 (348 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 25 (–4 size, -1 Dex, +20 natural), touch 5, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Greatclub +29 melee (4d8+21) or slam +28 melee (1d8+14) or rock +14 ranged (4d6+14)
Full Attack: Greatclub +29/+24 melee (4d8+21) or 2 slams +28 melee (1d8+14) or rock +14 ranged (4d6+14)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Fling, rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, rock catching, scent
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +7, Will +10
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 8 , Con 30, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Jump +27, Listen +13, Spot +13
Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often chaotic
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +5
What appears to be a massive human lumbers forth, each step shaking the ground with its great weight.
Brobdingnagians are greedy, selfish brutes found in nearly any climate.
Their skin coloration ranges from light tan to dark brown, with hair of nearly any color found in humans. Most wear hides and furs, though some wear clothing reminscent to human commoners.
Adults are about 30 feet tall and weigh about 30,000 pounds. Brobdingnagians can live to be 400 years old.
A brobdingnagian’s bag usually contains 2d6 throwing rocks, 1d4+3 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These possessions tend to be broken or in disrepair.
Combat
Brobdingnagians prefer to smash opponents and objects with massive clubs and beefy fists. A brobdingnagian generally employs 10-point Power Attack. If it can't hit its foes, it will generally drop down to 5 points the next round; if it hits easily, it will use full Power Attack in following rounds. A brobdingnagian also enjoys sundering weapons and defensive structures.
Fling (Ex): A brobdingnagian who sucessfully grapples a foe two or more size categories smaller than itself can hurl the creature as a standard action. A flung creature travels up to 120 feet and takes 12d6 points of damage. A creature that is flung off a mountain or other great height takes this amount of damage or the appropriate falling damage, whichever is greater. The brobdingnagian also can throw the flung creature as though it were a boulder. In this case, the flung creature takes 12d6+14 points of damage, and any opponent it strikes takes 4d6+14 points of damage.
Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 140 feet for a Gargantuan brobdingnagian’s thrown rocks. Adult brobdingnagians are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A brobdingnagian can hurl rocks weighing 80 to 160 pounds each (Large objects) up to five range increments.
Rock Catching (Ex): A Gargantuan brobdingnagian can catch rocks (or projectiles of similar shape) of up to Gargantuan size. Once per round, a brobdingnagian that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for Medium, 25 for Large, 30 for Huge, and 35 for a Gargantuan one (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The brobdingnagian must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.
Brobdingnagians as Characters
Brobdingnagian characters possess the following racial traits.
* +28 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +20 Constitution, –4 Intelligence, –4 Charisma.
* Gargantuan size. –4 penalty to Armor Class, –4 penalty on attack rolls, –12 penalty on Hide checks, +12 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits eight times those of Medium characters.
* Space/Reach: 20 feet/20 feet.
* A brobdingnagian's base land speed is 60 feet.
* Low-light vision.
* Racial Hit Dice: A brobdingnagian begins with 24 levels of giant, which provide 24d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +18, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +14, Ref +8, and Will +8.
* Racial Skills: A brobdingnagian's giant levels give it skill points equal to 27 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Jump, Listen, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: A brobdingnagian's giant levels give it nine feats.
* +20 natural armor bonus.
* Special Attacks (see above): Fling, rock throwing.
* Special Qualities (see above): Rock catching, scent.
* Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brobdingnagian is automatically proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields.
* Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
* Level adjustment +4.
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Old 01-25-06, 09:06 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Just so we have a point of reference for Gargantuan-sized giants, I figured I'd see what would happen if I "advanced" the Hill Giant by two size categories, reduced the MM2 Colossal Mountain Giant (resembles "a titanic hill giant") by one size category, and taking the average:
Gargantuan Hill Giant: Str 41, Dex 6 , Con 27, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +16 nat. AC, >12 HD
Gargantuan Mtn Giant: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +24 nat. AC, <30 HD
Avg. Gargantuan Giant: Str 38, Dex 8 , Con 30, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7, +20 nat. AC, 24 HD?
If we want to (hey, we could have a poll! ) we could adopt these stats whole-hog, and quickly put together a "traditional Gargantuan giant". Once that one is out of the way, we can start some polls for a less traditional giant, which is something I know a number of people here would love to do...
I'm fine with the stats Conaill derived. Any objections?
I've even got a name for this fellow...
Brob·ding·nag·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brbdng-ng-n)
adj.
Immense; enormous.
[After Brobdingnag, a country in Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift, where everything was enormous.]
Whaddya think?
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Old 01-25-06, 10:45 PM #3
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If we do go with 24HD, that would mean a total of 9 feats.
Hill Giant: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Mountain Giant: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Imp. Critical (mountain giant club), Power Attack, Imp. Sunder
The Mountain Giant has too few feats (should have 11 for 30HD), but he does have some additional SQ's as well (Scent, Darkvision, etc.)
Improved Critical just seems cruel, when being attacked with a Gargantuan club or greatclub - ditch that one for the sake of the greater good? Alertness seems to go against the classical fairytales, where people are always sneaking around behind the giant's back. Scent would fit though. Combat reflexes... eh, I think I'd rather have a big. slow brute - doesn't have a Dex bonus anyway. Weapon choice... club would probably work better than greatclub: too hard to find a tree the right size and shape to make a Gargantuan greatclub...
So we get:
1. Cleave
2. Great Cleave
3. Improved Bull Rush
4. Power Attack
5. Improved Sunder
6. Weapon Focus (club)
7-9. Awesome Blow? Improved Unarmed Strike? Improved Overrun? Iron Will?
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Old 01-25-06, 11:12 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
If we do go with 24HD, that would mean a total of 9 feats.
Hill Giant: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Imp. Sunder, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Mountain Giant: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Imp. Critical (mountain giant club), Power Attack, Imp. Sunder
The Mountain Giant has too few feats (should have 11 for 30HD), but he does have some additional SQ's as well (Scent, Darkvision, etc.)
Here's the mountain giant's feats per the conversion guide: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (mountain giant club), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Track
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Improved Critical just seems cruel, when being attacked with a Gargantuan club or greatclub - ditch that one for the sake of the greater good? Alertness seems to go against the classical fairytales, where people are always sneaking around behind the giant's back. Scent would fit though. Combat reflexes... eh, I think I'd rather have a big. slow brute - doesn't have a Dex bonus anyway. Weapon choice... club would probably work better than greatclub: too hard to find a tree the right size and shape to make a Gargantuan greatclub...
So we get:
1. Cleave
2. Great Cleave
3. Improved Bull Rush
4. Power Attack
5. Improved Sunder
6. Weapon Focus (club)
7-9. Awesome Blow? Improved Unarmed Strike? Improved Overrun? Iron Will?
I'm fine with 1-6, and would go with Awesome Blow, Iron Will, and Combat Reflexes. Many of the other giants have it, and since its Dex is so low I thiink the point is simply to allow it an Attack of Opportunity while flat-footed.
Also, I'd like to stick with greatclub as many other giants have it, and it is a two-handed weapon which makes it more of a "bat".
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Old 01-25-06, 11:18 PM #5
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Another discussion point for the Brobdingnagian (Great name, BTW. Gygax would be proud ) is the issue of speed/agility/whatever you want to call it. Fairytale giants tend do move a lot slower (not in terms of feet/round, but in actions or attacks per round) than their "hero" opponents. Standard D&D mechanics however links attacks/round to the HD of the critter. In our case, a 24HD giant would mean a BAB of 18, and 3 attacks/round on a full attack.
I see three ways we could deal with this:
1) Interpret "traditional" as "as close an extrapolation from the D&D Hill and Mountain giants as possible". I.e. give him the 3 attacks/round and don't sweat the discrepancy with the non-D&D giant archetype.
2) Slow-moving just means "clumsy", so reduce the Dex. Won't slow down the number of attacks, or his chance to grapple opponents, etc.
3) Radical: tackle the issue head-on, by giving him something like the zombie's "Single Actions Only" quality. No full attacks, but he could still use the "start full-round action" standard action to split a FRA over two rounds.
What do you think?
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Old 01-25-06, 11:21 PM #6
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I prefer #1, and #2 is pretty much covered already.
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Old 01-25-06, 11:22 PM #7
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Thanks for the "conversion guide" changes, Shade! Didn't think to look there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
I'm fine with 1-6, and would go with Awesome Blow, Iron Will, and Combat Reflexes. Many of the other giants have it, and since its Dex is so low I thiink the point is simply to allow it an Attack of Opportunity while flat-footed.
Aw... but I want to be able to run through it's legs when it's flat-footed...
(No seriously! )
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Old 01-26-06, 12:24 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Thanks for the "conversion guide" changes, Shade! Didn't think to look there...
shade is a pro about stuff like that!
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Old 01-26-06, 02:34 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
3) Radical: tackle the issue head-on, by giving him something like the zombie's "Single Actions Only" quality. No full attacks, but he could still use the "start full-round action" standard action to split a FRA over two rounds.
Well, wouldn't you know... the CC's Colossus is a gargantuan giant with the "Partial Actions Only" SQ. Great minds think alike, I guess. (No indication where this one comes from though...)
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Old 01-26-06, 08:23 AM #10
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Spelljammer. and yes, the 2E version had them being so large that they were so slow.
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Old 01-26-06, 03:17 PM #11
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Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that concept, but since this fella is filling the voic between the hill and mountain giants, and neither of them have limited actions, I'd rather not limit this one's actions.
That's what the Colossus is for.
Advancing a hill giant to 24 HD and Gargantuan size would give it CR 12, which might be fine if we give it no other special abilities like the mountain giant possesses.
Note that the storm giant is CR 13 and smaller with 5 less HD, but possesses spell-like, freedom of movement, immunity to electricity, and water breathing. The mountain giant, though listed as CR 26, has been suggested CR 16 by various WOTC designers on the message boards.
I could see maybe bumping it to CR 13, adjusting for any additional special abilities we grant it, if any.
More to discuss...
Speed: Hill giant base speed is 40 ft. Mountain giant base speed is 80 ft. Wanna go with 60 ft.?
Skills: Hill has Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot. Mountain has Jump, Listen, Spot. I'd say Jump, Listen, Spot are definite, Climb is a possibility.
Treasure: Both types have Standard. Sound good for this guy?
Alignment: Hill is often chaotic evil, mountain is usually chaotic. So, shall we go with: often chaotic, often chaotic evil, usually chaotic, or usually chaotic evil?
Last edited by Shade : 01-26-06 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 01-26-06, 08:32 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that concept, but since this fella is filling the voic between the hill and mountain giants, and neither of them have limited actions, I'd rather not limit this one's actions.
Ok. In that case, I might try push for this for the "Giant by Poll", just 'cause I think it's a cool archetype (and it would fit well with my "Hill That Walks" concept).
I still have a strong preference against Combat Reflexes though...
Quote:
Speed: Hill giant base speed is 40 ft. Mountain giant base speed is 80 ft. Wanna go with 60 ft.?
I think one could argue for either 60 or 70 ft.
Quote:
Skills: Hill has Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot. Mountain has Jump, Listen, Spot. I'd say Jump, Listen, Spot are definite, Climb is a possibility.
At that size, I would favor leaving Climb out. The only think he'd be climbing would be mountains and tall hills, and not even the Mountain giant has Climb...
Quote:
Alignment: Hill is often chaotic evil, mountain is usually chaotic. So, shall we go with: often chaotic, often chaotic evil, usually chaotic, or usually chaotic evil?
Often Chaotic?
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Old 01-26-06, 08:54 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Ok. In that case, I might try push for this for the "Giant by Poll", just 'cause I think it's a cool archetype (and it would fit well with my "Hill That Walks" concept).
Fair enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
I still have a strong preference against Combat Reflexes though...
That's why I put a question mark by it...I'm hoping someone will "break the tie", so to speak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
I think one could argue for either 60 or 70 ft.
Agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
At that size, I would favor leaving Climb out. The only think he'd be climbing would be mountains and tall hills, and not even the Mountain giant has Climb...
But what about beanstalks?
That's fine with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Often Chaotic?
Sounds good. No reason they have to be evil.
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Old 01-26-06, 10:33 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
But what about beanstalks?
Doh! Got me there...
Then again, IIRC the giant never actually *successfully* climbed down the beanstalk.
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Old 01-26-06, 10:37 PM #15
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Wasn't that because it was cut down?
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Old 01-26-06, 11:10 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Otu
Wasn't that because it was cut down?
True, but we have no reason to believe he would have made it down safely even if it hadn't been cut down.
Besides, if that giant had a decent Climb skill, its higher Speed should have allowed it to catch up with Jack. Clearly, Jack was doing an Accelerated Climb at a -5 penalty to move 1/2 his speed instead of 1/4, while the giant could only manage a Climb DC of 5-9: able to climb a "knotted rope" at 1/4 speed, but not the DC 10 for an Accellerated Climb.
Last edited by Conaill : 01-26-06 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 01-27-06, 02:55 PM #17
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I filled in some of the blanks...how's he looking?
For the attacks, Huge giants have slams that deal 1d6...advancing that one size category gives 1d8. Huge giant's rocks do 2d8, becoming 3d8 at Gargantuan.
Environment: Any?
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
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Old 01-27-06, 08:45 PM #18
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Slam should be 1d8.
Rocks... well, it seem the Giant's rocks don't really follow the normal size progressions. I suspect this is an inconsistency that slipped through the 3.5 cleanup.
Most Large giants have 2d6 rocks, with the exception of the Stone giant who has 2d8. Huge giants seem to use 2d8, even though it should be Large 2d6 -> Huge 3d6 (-> Gargantuan 4d6). The Colossal mountain giant uses 4d8 rocks, which isn't a standard for Colossal weapons. It's closes to 6d6 (Colossal Falchion or Longsword), which would scale down to 4d6 at Gargantuan. (See the "Larger and Smaller Weapon Damage" table, which is much more useful than the "Increased Damage By Size" table.)
Overall, I think 4d6 rocks seem to make most sense. At least it's a standard damage for that size.
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Old 01-27-06, 08:48 PM #19
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1d8 and 4d6 works for me.
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Old 01-27-06, 11:58 PM #20
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Gargantuan greatclub should be 4d8:
1d0 Medium -> 2d8 Large -> 3d8 Huge -> 4d8 Gargantuan
(Or 3d6 for a regular club: 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6)
The Mountain giant uses a non-3.5-standard 4d8 "mountain giant club", a 2-handed weapon which in between a Colossal club (4d6) and greatclub (6d8). That's one reason why I'd prefer something less than a greatclub for the Gargantuian version as well...
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Old 01-30-06, 02:56 PM #21
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Oops! Missed a size category. Thanks for the catch.
I really don't like the "mountain giant" club business...why break the rules when it isn't necessary?
I went with greatclub because the hill, fog, and stone giant use it, whereas none of the giants use a standard club. It's easy enough to swap out in actual play, though.
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Old 01-30-06, 08:19 PM #22
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So what's left?
Does this guy need some additional SA's or SQ's to balance him out? Here are some options from the Mountain Giant we may want to consider:
Special Attacks: Crush, fling, grapple, trample
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent, summon giants
Would any of these improve our current design? I'm strongly opposed to "Summon Giants", but Scent and Trample would definitely make sense. Any other special abilities that are a must-have for a Gargantuan creature? (Swallow Whole perhaps?)
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Old 01-30-06, 08:34 PM #23
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Are you OK with these?
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Yeah, definitely not summon giants. Crush, fling, trample, and scent are all OK, but not essential. Grapple is simply improved grab with a different name.
Of all of them, I like scent and fling the best.
Also, note that fling is essentially the Snatch feat, only we'd need to add a line stating that it may use the Snatch feat with its slam attacks...
Snatch [General]
The creature can grab opponents much smaller than itself and hold them in its mouth or claw.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can choose to start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the creature gets a hold on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage. A snatched opponent held in the creature’s mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature’s breath weapon, if it has one.
The creature can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 1d6 x 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If the creature flings a snatched opponent while flying, the opponent takes this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.
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Old 01-30-06, 10:37 PM #24
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pretty sure the "mtn giant club" thing came from 3.0, at a time when designers were just not at all sure of what to do with re-sizing weapons. check the update booklet?
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Old 01-30-06, 10:40 PM #25
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Yeah...not changed.
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Old 01-30-06, 10:43 PM #26
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how silly!
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Old 01-30-06, 10:50 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Are you OK with these?
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (2 plus 1-3 noncombatants)
Sounds good.
Quote:
Of all of them, I like scent and fling the best.
Also, note that fling is essentially the Snatch feat, only we'd need to add a line stating that it may use the Snatch feat with its slam attacks...
Yeah, I had definitely noticed the similarity. I'd prefer not to use Snatch as-is, because of its references to bite attack, holding the opponent in the mouth, and breath weapon. Plus Fling also includes the "throw as though it were a boulder" case. I think we'd be better off just converting Fling instead.
Anyone seen any house rules for throwing opponents in battle somewhere? I thought I had seen some - maybe in Sage rules? Or some 3rd party supplement?
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Old 01-30-06, 10:55 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Yeah...not changed.
Yeah, not to mention the fact that it explicitly states that the "mountain giant club is the
equivalent of a heavy mace sized for a Colossal creature; damage is correct (4d8+24)."
Of course, a Colossal heavy mace would do 6d6 damage, not 4d8...
(The update booklet also gives the Forest giant a Huge greatclub at 4d8 - should be 4d6.)
Last edited by Conaill : 01-30-06 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 02-01-06, 03:10 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Anyone seen any house rules for throwing opponents in battle somewhere? I thought I had seen some - maybe in Sage rules? Or some 3rd party supplement?
Dunno, but we can just use fling from mountain giant to keep it consistent.
Updated. Should we reduce the fling distance/damage?
Range increment of thrown rocks? Most Large giants have 120, Huge giants 180, and the only Colossal one doesn't list it. How about 240?
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Old 02-01-06, 11:44 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
Should we reduce the fling distance/damage?
Range increment of thrown rocks? Most Large giants have 120, Huge giants 180, and the only Colossal one doesn't list it. How about 240?
Definitely need to adjust the fling distance/damage. For the mountain giant, damage to the target is the same as a thrown rock (4d8+16, would be 4d6+14 in our case). Damage to the throwee is 12d6+16 - not sure where they got that number, but I'm guessing it may be the falling damage for its range (120 ft x 1d6/10ft) plus the ranged attack damage bonus. Let's wait till we decide on a rock range increment first... (By the way, does "can throw the flung creature as a boulder" mean you can get up to 5 range increments in that case, instead of a fixed 120 ft cutoff??)
Which Huge giants have 180 ft range increment? Cloud has 140 ft, Storm doesn't do rocks, Forest, Ocean and Sun all have 120 ft. I don't have MM3 - any giants in there?
By the way, I think the rock atttack roll should be 18 BAB -4 size -1 Dex +1 Rock Throwing bonus = 14 (says +8 right now)
Bit more language to fold in:
Quote:
Rock Throwing (Ex)
Adult giants are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A giant of at least Gargantuan size can hurl rocks weighing 80 to 160 pounds each (Large objects) up to five range increments.
Rock Catching (Ex)
A Gargantuan giant can catch rocks (or projectiles of similar shape) of up to Gargantuan size.
Once per round, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for Medium, 25 for Large, 30 for Huge, and 35 for a Gargantuan one (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.
Last edited by Conaill : 02-01-06 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 02-02-06, 03:28 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Definitely need to adjust the fling distance/damage. For the mountain giant, damage to the target is the same as a thrown rock (4d8+16, would be 4d6+14 in our case).
I already fixed that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Damage to the throwee is 12d6+16 - not sure where they got that number, but I'm guessing it may be the falling damage for its range (120 ft x 1d6/10ft) plus the ranged attack damage bonus. Let's wait till we decide on a rock range increment first... (By the way, does "can throw the flung creature as a boulder" mean you can get up to 5 range increments in that case, instead of a fixed 120 ft cutoff??)
I believe your formula is correct, and I think it is limited to flinging a foe 120 feet total.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Which Huge giants have 180 ft range increment? Cloud has 140 ft, Storm doesn't do rocks, Forest, Ocean and Sun all have 120 ft. I don't have MM3 - any giants in there?
Funny...I went by the stone giant, the only one you didn't mention.
It looks like Huge giants range from 120 ft. up to 180 ft. (stone). The fog giant's is 140 ft.. and the geriviar (MM3) is 160 ft. So I suppose it is whatever we'd like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
By the way, I think the rock atttack roll should be 18 BAB -4 size -1 Dex +1 Rock Throwing bonus = 14 (says +8 right now)
You are correct!
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Originally Posted by Conaill
Bit more language to fold in:
I skipped it since it appears to be one of those "see the main giant entry" types of things.
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Old 02-02-06, 05:38 PM #32
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Originally Posted by Shade
Funny...I went by the stone giant, the only one you didn't mention.
Maybe because it's Large, not Huge, and because it's a special case when it comes to Rock Throwing (the only one that's listed as using *both* hands to throw)?
So it sounds like for the Huge giants we have 3 at 120 ft, 2 at 140, and one at 160 ft. I have a hunch that they intended 120 Ft for the Mountain giant, so let's not go up too far. How about 140ft for our guy?
Quote:
I skipped it since it appears to be one of those "see the main giant entry" types of things.
Yeah, but it does have some info that is *not* in the main entry - in particular, the rock weight and catching DC for a gargantuan giant.
(How the heck do they expect these giants to catch *any* rocks anyway? Best Reflex save in the bunch is a +8... good luck catching a DC25 or DC30 rock...)
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Old 02-02-06, 05:56 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conaill
Maybe because it's Large, not Huge, and because it's a special case when it comes to Rock Throwing (the only one that's listed as using *both* hands to throw)?
So it sounds like for the Huge giants we have 3 at 120 ft, 2 at 140, and one at 160 ft. I have a hunch that they intended 120 Ft for the Mountain giant, so let's not go up too far. How about 140ft for our guy?
Oops...I think I was looking at the stone giant elder.
140 feet sounds good.
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Originally Posted by Conaill
Yeah, but it does have some info that is *not* in the main entry - in particular, the rock weight and catching DC for a gargantuan giant.
OK, we can work that in then.
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(How the heck do they expect these giants to catch *any* rocks anyway? Best Reflex save in the bunch is a +8... good luck catching a DC25 or DC30 rock...)
The ol' "5% rule" (roll a natural 20).
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Old 02-02-06, 10:39 PM #34
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Originally Posted by Shade
The ol' "5% rule" (roll a natural 20).
\imagines two giants lobbing rocks back and forth, just for fun...
A: "Catch!"
B: BAM! "Ouf... just slipped out of my fingers, that one. Coming back at you..."
A: CRASH! "Ugh... straight.. into.. belly... Catch... breath..."
"Ok, better now... Curve ball!"
B: SMACK! "... lookatiprettyburdies..."
A: "Good thing we got that Rock Catching, huh? Someone could get pretty hurt doing this!"
B: "Hey, ever wonder why I can only 'fling' this halfling here <fling> for 6 paces, yet if I grab this 500 lb ogre here <grab> and pretend he's a rock, I can throw five times that far? Heck, if he were a rock, I wouldn't even be able to throw him!"
A: "What's with the questions? Keep that rock moving, will ya!"
B: "Fine, here ya go!"
A: "Ooh, I got a good feeling about this one..."
SLAM!!
Last edited by Conaill : 02-02-06 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 02-02-06, 10:53 PM #35
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Ain't that the truth?
Like most D&D rules, reality is checked at the door.
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Old 02-09-06, 03:29 PM #36
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We need to work on the contents of its giant's bag. Some examples...
A hill giant's bag usually contains 2d4 throwing rocks, 1d4+4 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These possessions tend to be well worn, filthy, and stinky. The items are usually crude and often jury-rigged or salvaged from some similar item. Examples include a hand chopper made from a broken battleaxe head, a wooden bowl and spoon, or a drinking cup made from a big gourd or a skull.
A frost giant's bag usually contains 1d4+1 throwing rocks, 3d4 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. Everything in a frost giant's bag is old, worn, dirty, and smelly, making the identification of any valuable items difficult.
A typical fire giant's bag contains 1d4+1 throwing rocks, 3d4 mundane items, a tinderbox, and the giant's personal wealth. Everything a fire giant owns is battered, dirty, and often singed by heat.
A stone giant's bag usually contains 2d12 throwing rocks, 1d4+6 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. A stone giant's possessions are neither particularly clean nor particularly dirty, but most of them are made from stone.
A mountain giant's bag contains 3d4 rocks, 1d4+2 mundane items, and the giant's personal wealth. These items tend to be humanoid artifacts that the mountain giant considers playthings, such as broken wagons, small huts, and furniture, including tables and beds.
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Old 02-09-06, 04:37 PM #37
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2d6 rocks and 1d4+3 mundane items sounds about right.
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Old 02-09-06, 11:19 PM #38
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That works for me.
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Old 02-21-06, 03:45 PM #39
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A Colossal mountain giant is 40 feet tall and weighs nearly 50,000 pounds.
A Huge storm giant is about 21 feet tall and weighs about 12,000 pounds.
So, shall our Gargantuan fella be about 30 feet tall and weigh around 30,000 pounds?
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Old 02-21-06, 04:17 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
So, shall our Gargantuan fella be about 30 feet tall and weigh around 30,000 pounds?
Seems reasonable.
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