What is an "Attack Action" and "Full Attack Action"

I am intentionally not providing context for this question. It stems from a ToB:Bo9S debate, however I would prefer to leave that part of the debate separate from this thread, because it clouds the issue. If you want to discuss the Book of Nine Swords aspect of this question, please do it in that thread.

I am asking:

1) How do the rules define an "attack action" specifically;
2) How do the rules define a "full round attack action" specifically;
3) What things are specifically included in the definition of an "attack action" and "full round attack action";
4) Can anyone think of anything that is an "attack" which is not an "attack action" or a "full round attack action"?

Mistwell said:

4) Can anyone think of anything that is an "attack" which is not an "attack action" or a "full round attack action"?

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Manyshot. By the RAW t's a standard action and thus can't be used in place of other things that involve and "attack action" like Shot on the Run.

Which of course kind of papers over the fact that any attack action that's a single attack is also, essentially, a standard action thus the need for clarification that Manyshot cannot be used with Shot on the Run...

1) An attack action is a standard action (PHB p.139)
2) A full attack action is a full-round action (PHB p.143)
3) An attack action gives you a single melee or ranged attack as a standard action. A full attack action gives you whatever multiple attacks you have as a full-round action. That's it, that's all.
4) An AoO is an attack without an attack action. Improved Trip gives a melee attack without the attack action. Flanking Maneuver in ToB gives your allies an immediate free melee attack that isn't even an AoO.

4) Casting scorching ray is an "attack" -- it requires an attack roll to hit, does damage -- but is not part of the attack or full attack actions. The attack and full attack actions are for combat using weapons, primarily, whereas spells and the like tend to use the language of requiring the use of swift, immediate, standard and 1 round actions.

The thing to keep in mind is that all these actions are specific things. On p.141 of the PHB there's a table of actions under the broader category of what kind they are. For example, the attack (melee) action is listed at the top of the list of standard actions.

An attack (melee) action is a standard action, but the converse is not true. A standard action is not an attack (melee) action, it's something more general than that, and encompasses many more options. (Again, see table 8-2 on PHB 141.)

To touch lightly on your other thread, maneuvers are similar to spells in that they require certain actions to initiate, as spelled out in the maneuver description. For example, emerald razor says it requires a standard action. As part of the maneuver, you can make an attack, but like my previous example with scorching ray, the attack it allows is explicitly spelled out in its description. Shadow jaunt is another maneuver which also uses a standard action to initiate but does not involve an attack at all.

In that regard, perhaps it's best to think of B9S maneuvers as spells which often grant attacks.

As for 1, 2, and 3), see PHB 139 and 143. Alternatively, here's the relevant section in the SRD.

Hope this helps,
Vurt

Vurt said:

To touch lightly on your other thread, maneuvers are similar to spells in that they require certain actions to initiate, as spelled out in the maneuver description. For example, emerald razor says it requires a standard action. As part of the maneuver, you can make an attack, but like my previous example with scorching ray, the attack it allows is explicitly spelled out in its description. Shadow jaunt is another maneuver which also uses a standard action to initiate but does not involve an attack at all.

In that regard, perhaps it's best to think of B9S maneuvers as spells which often grant attacks.

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This is precisely the stuff I want to leave in the other thread. Whether or not a maneuver is an attack action is NOT what I am asking here. I want to first get to the issue of "what is an attack action" according to core RAW.

blargney the second said:

Improved Trip gives a melee attack without the attack action.

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So is it your opinion that not all melee attacks are an attack action, despite melee attacks being listed as the first subset of attack actions?

The way I always viewed Improved Trip, you are still using your normal attack action, it's just that the trip attempt itself is a bonus action granted by the feat. If the bonus action works, then you get your normal melee attack. Or the other way around - the trip attempt is your normal melee attack action, and you get a bonus attack action if it works that can only be used for a melee attack on that tripped target. But either way, the melee attack that comes after the trip attempt always seemed to be an attack action to me. It seems to function in all ways like an attack action, doesn't it?

Mistwell said:

This is precisely the stuff I want to leave in the other thread. Whether or not a maneuver is an attack action is NOT what I am asking here. I want to first get to the issue of "what is an attack action" according to core RAW.

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Suit yourself. Just trying to be helpful.

Vurt

Mistwell said:

So is it your opinion that not all melee attacks are an attack action, despite melee attacks being listed as the first subset of attack actions?

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Yep. It's not commutative. An AoO doesn't give you an attack action, because that would mean you could change your Power Attack or Combat Expertise value outside of your own turn, amongst other things.

Taking an attack action lets you make an attack roll, but the opposite is not true. (ie making an attack roll does not grant you an attack action.)
-blarg

Mistwell said:

So is it your opinion that not all melee attacks are an attack action, despite melee attacks being listed as the first subset of attack actions?

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That's not his opinion; that's the rules.

There are many ways to get an attack. One of them is to take the Attack Standard action, which grants you a single ranged or melee attack. Another is to take the Full Attack Full-Round action, which grants you one or more ranged or melee attacks.

Another is an AoO, which isn't an action at all.

A fourth is the [Great] Cleave feat, which grant attacks when certain conditions are met but which is [are] not an action in and of itself[ves].

Any feat or ability which states "As a standard action, you may ..." is not an Attack Standard action. It is its own standard action, in effect adding that feat or ability to the list of standard actions in the PHB.

For another PHB example, consider the Sunder Standard action. Taking this standard action grants you a single melee attack against an item held or worn by your opponent. However, it is its own standard action, and therefore you cannot use Combat Expertise when you Sunder, nor can you Sunder in the middle of a Spring Attack.

blargney the second said:

Yep. It's not commutative. An AoO doesn't give you an attack action, because that would mean you could change your Power Attack or Combat Expertise value outside of your own turn, amongst other things.

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Why would you be able to change feat values when making an extra attack action with specific restrictions on it (unless the restrictions allow you to do so)?

Taking an attack action lets you make an attack roll, but the opposite is not true. (ie making an attack roll does not grant you an attack action.)
-blarg

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Yeah but we are not talking about just making an attack roll. We are talking about feats, spells, and other things that say "cast this spell at a target and simultaneously make a melee touch attack against that target" or "make a trip attempt against a target and if successful make a melee attack against that target". If something directs you to make a melee attack, isn't that melee attack an attack action (even if it is an additional attack action above and beyond your standard action, and even if it is limited to taking a specific type of melee attack and nothing else)?