What is an "Attack Action" and "Full Attack Action"

[Mistwell]

That's not his opinion; that's the rules.

That has got to be one of the funnier posts I have read in the rules forum. I think I might have to bring it over to CircvsMaximvs.

Yes, that is his opinion. And it's your opinion apparently as well.

There are many ways to get an attack. One of them is to take the Attack Standard action, which grants you a single ranged or melee attack. Another is to take the Full Attack Full-Round action, which grants you one or more ranged or melee attacks.

Another is an AoO, which isn't an action at all.

An AOO is an action in my opinion. Anything that your character does while in initiative is an action, even if it's a free action. In my opinion, an AOO is a bonus attack action. Lots of things seem to grant a bonus attack action with restrictions, and an AOO is one of them in my opinion.

A fourth is the [Great] Cleave feat, which grant attacks when certain conditions are met but which is [are] not an action in and of itself[ves].

Again, I think anything you do in initiative is an action of some kind. Cleave is yet another feat that grants you a bonus attack action, with restrictions.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why would you be able to change feat values when making an extra attack action with specific restrictions on it (unless the restrictions allow you to do so)?

Because Combat Expertise says that you may use it when taking the attack action in melee.

If someone provokes an AoO, and you're in melee, you could "invoke" Combat Expertise.

However, an AoO is not an attack action, and therefore you cannot use CE with it (if you hadn't done so on your own turn, anyway).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That has got to be one of the funnier posts I have read in the rules forum. I think I might have to bring it over to CircvsMaximvs.

Oh. You're one of those posters. This'll probably be my last response to you, then.

An AOO is an action in my opinion.

Your opinion is wrong. An AoO does not appear on any list of actions.

Good-bye.

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is a difference between a melee attack, and the Attack action.

The Charge action is not the Attack action, but it allows you to make a melee attack.

The Full Attack action is not the Attack action, but it allows you to make potentially several melee attacks or ranged attacks.

"Melee attack" is listed under the Attack action, and is one of the things the Attack action allows you to do... but it is not the only source of a melee attack.

Cleave does not grant an extra Attack action, merely an extra melee attack.

Consider - if any action that included an attack were an Attack action, then why would the following phrasings be required?

"When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class."

By your reasoning, since the full attack action includes an attack and is therefore an attack action, the phrasing "the attack action or the full attack action" is redundant.

"These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

By your reasoning, the charge action, full attack action, and attack of opportunity are all attack actions, so again, the phrasing is redundant... note, also, that the phrasing explicitly differentiates between a melee attack and an action, which doesn't fit with your assertion that any melee attack is an attack action.

Edit - oh, damn. Er, yarrrh!

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Because Combat Expertise says that you may use it when taking the attack action in melee.

That depends on how broadly you read this sentence "The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action." All it says is next action, not next attack action in melee. A free action is an action, so if you read it really broadly, simply talking would allow you to change the value on the feat. I don't read it that broadly however - it sure seems to me to imply "next turn".

If someone provokes an AoO, and you're in melee, you could "invoke" Combat Expertise.

You could if you read it as broadly as you seem to be. An AoO is, in my opinion, an action. It's an action of some sort. You are clearly doing something, and everything you do while in initiative is an action.

However, an AoO is not an attack action, and therefore you cannot use CE with it (if you hadn't done so on your own turn, anyway).

Combat Expertise just says Action, not "attack action", for how long the penalty lasts. By your reading, someone making an immediate action to trigger feather fall could reset their combat expertise value even when it isn't their turn - but I don't read it that way. But regardless, in my opinion an AoO is a bonus attack action with restrictions, like Cleave, Improved Trip, and many other things, and Combat Expertise is intended to reset on your next turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That depends on how broadly you read this sentence "The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action." All it says is next action, not next attack action in melee. A free action is an action, so if you read it really broadly, simply talking would allow you to change the value on the feat. I don't read it that broadly however - it sure seems to me to imply "next turn".

Right - there are several places in the rules where 'your next action' means 'your next turn in the initiative order', rather than 'the next move, standard, full-round, or free action you take'.

Combat Expertise just says Action, not "attack action", for how long the penalty lasts.

He's not talking about the penalty, he's talking about when you are eligible to use the Combat Expertise feat - that is, when you take the Attack action or the Full Attack action in melee.

For example, if you take the Charge action, you can make a melee attack... but you can't use Combat Expertise, because the Charge action, despite including a melee attack, is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action.

Arrrrh.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Oh. You're one of those posters. This'll probably be my last response to you, then.

No need to be rude.

Your opinion is wrong. An AoO does not appear on any list of actions.

Good-bye.

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack"

A melee attack is defined as an attack action.

Much like Improved Trip, Cleave, and other things don't appear on a list, you look to the bonus action they are granting you (or in this case the language is "free attacks", which I read as "bonus attack"). In this case the bonus action is a melee attack, which is an attack action. It has restrictions on it, specified in the AoO rules.

 

[Mistwell]

Right - there are several places in the rules where 'your next action' means 'your next turn in the initiative order', rather than 'the next move, standard, full-round, or free action you take'.



He's not talking about the penalty, he's talking about when you are eligible to use the Combat Expertise feat - that is, when you take the Attack action or the Full Attack action in melee.

For example, if you take the Charge action, you can make a melee attack... but you can't use Combat Expertise, because the Charge action, despite including a melee attack, is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action.

Arrrrh.

-Hyp.

Arrrrh, that's right, it's talk like a pirate day!

So why isn't a charge action a full attack action, matey?

 

[Hypersmurf]

A melee attack is defined as an attack action.

A melee attack is one of the possibilities provided for by the attack action, but they are not synonymous, nor is one strictly subordinate to the other.

There are sources of melee attacks other than the attack action.

(Note that in 3E, it was more confusing, because there was a class of actions called 'attack actions', one of which was the 'attack action'. In 3.5, no such class exists; the attack action is only a standard action which permits a single attack.)

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

There are sources of melee attacks other than the attack action.

I'd like to see an example of some of those. From my perspective, a lot of things grant you a bonus attack action with restrictions on it, often worded as "make a melee attack". How are these melee attacks not bonus attack actions?