greater turning for destroy undead

I know I've seen threads on this and even asked it before, but:

Destroy Undead is a character option / variant rule listed in Complete Divine and I'm pretty sure some other books as well. It replaces the normal turn undead, and basically functions as follows: turning is damage instead of an effect; 30' burst centered on caster; d6 damage per cleric level; will save for half DC 10 + cleric level + cha mod.

The first problem is turn resistance: this just subtracts one point of damage per point of resistance. That really makes no sense; this does almost nothing. The other issue is that it doesn't cover what to do for greater turning, which normally destroys undead instead of turning them.

Turn resistance aside, what suggestions do folks have for ruling on greater turning? At first I thought, "simple: double damage." But that can get out of control pretty quickly. Sure, that means you're pretty much going to destroy any undead you turn - but it also means at higher levels you're pretty much going to destroy ANY undead you ATTEMPT to turn if your character is the least bit optimized for turning undead. It also means that the higher your level, the greater the disparity between regular turns and greater turns (1d6 vs. 2d6 is ok, but 10d6 vs. 20d6 is crazy).

The spirit of "greater turn" is that it is extra lethal against undead you are able to turn. However, it doesn't help you turn them, and if you can't turn something, it's just as worthless as a regular turn. Can anyone think of a good way to keep the same spirit of greater undead without getting into crazy amounts of turn damage that effectively make it extremely powerful regardless of your turning ability? Or is this really pretty fair and I'm just misjudging it? (Or can anyone find some of those old threads and link to them?) Assistance appreciated.

Old Thread here recommends:

- Turn Resistance provided 5 points of resistance per point
- Sun Domain ability to Destroy Undead usable once per day
- Destroy Undead either provide +4 to the DC of the will save or +4D6 damage

evilbob said:

The spirit of "greater turn" is that it is extra lethal against undead you are able to turn. However, it doesn't help you turn them, and if you can't turn something, it's just as worthless as a regular turn. Can anyone think of a good way to keep the same spirit of greater undead without getting into crazy amounts of turn damage that effectively make it extremely powerful regardless of your turning ability? Or is this really pretty fair and I'm just misjudging it? (Or can anyone find some of those old threads and link to them?) Assistance appreciated.

Click to expand...

Have greater turning only increase the damage on failed saves, and have turn resistance contribute to the save?

Thank you, Primitive Screwhead, for your unearthing abilities. Although I disagree with the idea in that thread: I think a static number is bad at both low and high levels. I sort of like the idea of bumping the damage die, though: wouldn't that be a nice use of the poor ignored d12s!

Gloombunny: Excellent idea (and nice avatar)! I think that may be one of the best ways to go: perhaps double damage only on a failed save, in conjunction with turn resistance also raising an undead's save against the effect.

I also think that turn resistance should contribute to reducing the overall damage; basically the old effect of turn resistance is that it makes it nigh impossible to effect the undead creature, so boosts to saves + reducing damage seems ok. Since clerics are rolling d6s per level, the amount it should reduce the damage is technically 3.5. But that's a bit odd and we like whole numbers... Perhaps every two levels of turn resistance gains a 5 reduction in damage? Or maybe we just count it as -4 damage per?

Part of the issue with this whole variant rule is that it really seems to be a no-brainer for a cleric to take it. And if you optimize that cleric, it becomes MUCH more powerful than a normal turn, ESPECIALLY against very powerful undead - which would be the ones most useful to turn and/or damage.

For example: let's take a cleric and optimize it for turning. We'll say the cleric is level 6, and we'll use two feats (one of which is completely optional), say his Cha is at least 16 (easy enough through stats or items), give him one item, and set his domains. That still leaves some wiggle room for the character, but makes him incredibly good for turning.
- level 6 cleric
- Cha mod +3
- feat: improved turning (PHB - and easily optional)
- feat: empower turning (Complete Divine / Libris Mortis)
- 5 ranks Knowledge religion
- item: Ephod of Authority (Magic Item Comp.; vest slot item; same effect as and stacks with improved turning; cost is only 800g - EASILY done)
- domains: Sun, Glory (Complete Divine / Spell Comp.)

Edit: I messed up on my original numbers; I left out the Cha mod to turn checks for the traditional cleric! Changes are in bold, but the overall point is the same.
Not hard, right? Now we have a level 6 cleric who turns like a level 8 cleric (Ephod, improved turning), adds +7 to turn checks (3 from Cha, 2 from Know. religion, 2 from Glory), adds 1d6 to damage (Glory), and then multiplies total turn damage by 1.5 (empower turning). Once per day, they also have a greater turning (Sun).

So we'll say our level 6 cleric is choosing between Traditional Turning and Destroy Undead.

Traditional:
- turns are 60' radius
- average turn check is d20 + 7 = 17; turns undead up to (level + 2) = 10 HD
- possible to turn undead up to 12 HD (~10% chance), minimum is 7 HD
- destroys turned undead with 4 HD or fewer
- total HD worth of undead turned: (3d6 + 8 [cleric level] + 3 [cha]) x 1.5 = averge 32 HD (max 43 HD)
- once per day, destroy any undead that are turned

Destroy:
- turns are 30' radius
- turn DC for will save is 10 + 8 [cleric level] + 3 [cha] + 2 [religion] + 2 [glory] = DC 25
- damage is 8d6 [cleric] + 1d6 [glory] = 9d6 x 1.5 = average 47 damage, 23 on save
- once per day, ???


So 4 HD undead and lower are instantly vaporized by the traditional cleric with a 100% chance (up to 8 of them on average), and since 4 HD undead have an average of maybe 4d12 + 3 (toughness?) = 29 HP, and a base will save of 4 added to whatever wisdom they have (maybe 1 or 2?), they have about a 90-95% chance to be vaporized on the spot (failed save) and 10% chance to be reduced to all but dead by the destroying cleric. This seems fair; the traditional cleric probably has a slight advantage.

Let's try again for a group of 6 HD undead (roughly CR-appropriate, maybe a little weak). Traditional has a 100% chance of turning up to 5 of them. Given average HP of 6d12 + 3 = 42 and will saves of 5 + wisdom (total of 6-7?), we still have about a 85-90% chance of destroying them instantly (again, using average damage) and 10-15% chance of doing half damage. Still fair - possibly even weak on the side of destroy - except that it's not limited to an average of 5 undead; any undead within 30' are game.

What if we bump it to some 8 HD undead? Traditional has a 85% chance to turn up to 4 of them. Given averages of 55 HP and maybe 7-8 will saves, destroyers will not destroy any of them with average rolls, but they do have a ~80-85% chance of doing 85% damage to them, or a ~20% chance of doing ~40% damage - again: guaranteed to do SOME damage, and not limited to any number of creatures. Probably still on the cusp of fair.

10 HD undead: traditional has a 65% chance to turn up to 3 of them. With averages of 68 HP and maybe 8-9 will saves, destroyers will have a ~75-80% chance of doing 70% damage to them, or a ~25% chance of doing ~30% damage. Here's where the disparity starts to show; traditional turns have a reduced chance to do anything, while destroyers still have a very good chance of doing significant damage.

Take a jump to 12 HD undead. Traditional has a 25% chance to turn 2 of them (although turning 3 is possible). Given 81HP and maybe 10-11 for will saves, destroyers will have a 65-70% chance of doing almost 60% of their life in damage, and a ~35% chance of doing only about 30%. At this point, traditional turns have a very reduced chance to do anything, while destroyers are still dealing good damage to ALL undead in range. Two destroying turns have a good chance to destroy all 12 HD creatures in range, while two traditional turns are very likely to do nothing.

Now let's go to 14 HD undead. Traditional? 0% chance to do anything. Destroyers: given 95 HD (toughness twice) and will saves of at least 12, that's still a 60% chance to do 50% damage and a 40% chance to do 25% damage. Given 3 turns and average rolls, a destroyer can still take out 14 HD undead - undead that are probably twice his challenge rating. The traditional turner is left with nothing. (Granted, the destroying cleric may not LAST 3 rounds against something twice his level, but it still shows the point.)


Now what happens when we add turn resistance into the mix? You can pretty much just move that chart down two notches for +4 turn resistance for traditional clerics: they have no chance against a 10 HD undead with +4 turn resistance and only a 10% chance against an 8 HD undead with +4 turn resistance. Destroyers (using rules-as-written)? You can completely ignore turn resistance; it's so insignificant it doesn't matter. You've still got a better than 50% chance to do half damage to a 14 HD undead with +4 turn resistance.


Now granted, these are using specific numbers and averages and not any kind of live data. Most undead encounters probably have different numbers of different HD's worth of undead, and many undead have better will saves than I've given. But none of those factors really play into the main issue, which is: against low level undead, both kinds of clerics are almost equally as good at destroying undead creatures, but against high level undead traditional clerics are at a severe disadvantage.

So how do we fix it?

I thought part of the idea behind the variant is that conventional turning is underpowered at higher levels. That the new kind works much better against high-end undead would seem to be a feature, not a bug.

Another thing to consider is that many of the items and effects that enhance turning may be too strong/too cheap when applied to the turning variant. They were probably made deliberately strong to help shore up a weak ability. You may want to just not allow most turning-related feats and items if you're using the variant.

evilbob said:

So how do we fix it?

Click to expand...

I've play tested this with a group and here what we found works best:

Damage: 1d6+1 per cleric level (we felt 1d6 wasn't enough, and the +1 raises the min damage. This is beneficial, especially with our handling of turn resistance)

DC = 10 + 1/2 cleric level + Cha mod, Will for half

Effect: 60' radius burst

Turn Resistance gives the creature DR equal to their TR rating * the creature's Hit Die and gives it an equal bonus to their Will save. For example, a spectre (HD 7, TR +2) would gain DR 14 against turning and a +2 bonus on its Will save.

Turn resistance is very powerful in the current system and needs to maintain its effectiveness with the destroying undead variant.

Gloombunny: Good point. Perhaps the standard against which it is being compared is broken.

Glass Jaw: I think it might be better to tone down turn resistance and leave the damage the same; you're sort of fixing two problems.

I've also seen people use the 1/2 cleric level for the will save, but the main issue there is that you know for a fact you're going against a high save; 1/2 cleric level + cha vs. undead will (which is 1/2 HD + 2 + wisdom, and undead HD is almost always > cleric level) will often lead to a worse than 50% chance to do full damage. Then again, full cleric level clearly leads to a much greater than 50% chance to do full damage in many instances... In my example above, it would reduce the save DC by 4 to 21. That's a 20% better chance for undead to save in all senarios, which does limit its effectiveness at low levels but also makes it closer to the normal turn ability at high levels. Part of the issue is also that you can't really even consider the save to be 1/2 cleric + cha, because it's generally a given that any cleric will have 5 ranks in Know(religion), so it's really 1/2 cleric + 2 + cha. That's much more "even," except that the cleric's cha will be high and the undead's wisdom will be low, but the undead will likely have many more HD than the cleric has levels. (In the case of unintelligent undead, the cleric will likely face enemies with 2 or 3 times his level in HD; for intelligent undead, it will likely be 1 to 2 times as high.) So the question becomes: how good is it to only do half damage to undead more often? Is it fair compared to turning, which more or less eliminates the undead from battle? Or should you split the difference, accept that the cleric's level will be about 1/2 the undead's HD in most senarios, and just keep it at level instead of 1/2 level?

60' vs. 30' is less of a concern, in my opinion; it's nice, but most encounters (at least, most that I have ever seen) occur in an area that is much less than 60' all around. You don't lose much by restricting the range, and it's also a nice way to put a reasonable cap on the damage.

I do think that turn resistance should be more powerful; there's really no question. (Makes you wonder how something like that even got past playtesting?) I think "adds to save" is pretty much a given at this point; the only thing left is how much it also subtracts from damage. Your method seems a bit high, but even the "average" of 3.5 seems ok or a bit low. Someone else suggested 5 points per level of turn resistance; that might be a good place to start.

If we again compare the idea that turn resistance is +1 to the save and -5 to the damage to my "chart" above, then we have the destroying undead cleric having a 20% less chance to effect any undead with +4 turn resistance, and he would do 20 less damage (which is 40% of max damage and 85% of half-damage). Against a 10 HD undead with +4 TR, we have a 55-60% chance of doing about 35% damage, and a ~45% chance of doing negligible damage. That seems pretty close to - but still better than - the traditional cleric, who has a 0% chance to do anything effective.

If we combine the turn resistance rule with the 1/2 cleric level save, we get a ~40% chance to do damage instead. (All the numbers on the chart for destroying undead's chances go down 20%.) This is much closer to regular turning, but then again we're also thinking that regular turning is a bit underpowered.


Hmm...

Edit: Here's an example from higher levels: 12th level cleric, same setup. Cha now 20.

15d6 x 1.5 damage = avg 79 with a DC 33 save for half. A nightwing [+17 save, 144 HP, 17 HD, CR 14] has an 80% chance to take 1/2 its HP in damage from a normal turn, vs. 60% chance to turn from the traditional cleric. Still seems fair.

DC = 1/2 cleric level means DC is only 27. That's a 50% chance to do 1/2 damage vs. a 60% chance to turn. Not as fair.

However, if we give the nightshade +4 turn resistance, the whole picture changes. The destroyer cleric is only reduced to having a 60% chance to do 40% damage, while the traditional cleric can't even affect it anymore. Even the 1/2 level thing only reduces it to a 30% chance. That's still 30% to do 40% damage, and 70% to do 15% - way better than 0% to do anything. (And if you throw in greater turning being 2x damage on a failed save: 30% chance to do 100% damage vs. 0%.)

And of course all of this is ignoring my original post about greater turning.

Which, if we decide is "double damage on a failed save," we have twice the % damage on all damaging cleric rolls above. The tricky thing there is once again when you get to high levels: 12 and 14 HD undead, who would be destroyed but have only a 10% or 0% chance to be turned by a normal cleric suddenly have a 60% and 65% chance respectively of being destroyed by a greater turn. Turn resistance decreases this significantly, but turn resistance puts those undead even further out of the traditional cleric's reach.

Using 1/2 cleric level also makes a big difference, but even combining these two you have a 20% chance of doing almost 50% damage to a 14 HD undead, vs. a 0% chance to even think about it.

For any who might nay-say, let's not forget the un-optimized cleric. This actually makes it much worse.

- level 6
- cha 14
- Knowledge(religion) 5 ranks (I mean, come on)

Edit: I messed up these numbers, too - fixed now.
Traditional:
- turns are 60' radius
- average turn check is d20 + 4 = 14; turns undead up to cleric's level + 1 = 7 HD
- possible to turn undead up to 10 HD (15% chance), minimum is 3 HD
- destroys turned undead with 3 HD or fewer
- total HD worth of undead turned: (2d6 + 6 [cleric level] + 2 [cha]) = averge 15 HD (max 20 HD)

Destroy:
- turns are 30' radius
- turn DC for will save is 10 + 6 [cleric level] + 2 [cha] + 2 [religion] = DC 20
- damage is 6d6 [cleric] = average 21 damage, 10 on save


4 HD undead:
- Traditional has 100% chance to turn up to 3 of them (max 5)
- Destroy has 65-70% chance of doing 70% damage; 30-35% chance of 30% damage
(slight edge to traditional)

6 HD:
- Traditional has 70% chance to turn up to 2 of them (max 3)
- Destroy has 60-65% chance of doing 50% damage; 35-40% chance of 25% damage

8 HD:
- Traditional has 40% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 2)
- Destroy has 55-60% chance of doing 40% damage; 40-45% chance of 20% damage
(heavy disparity favoring destroy)

10 HD:
- Traditional has 15% chance to turn up to 1 of them (max 1)
- Destroy has 50-55% chance of doing 30% damage; 45-50% chance of 15% damage
(massive disparity)

12 HD:
- Traditional has 0% chance to turn
- Destroy has 45-50% chance of doing 25% damage; 50-55% chance of 12% damage
(no comparison)

Again, turn resistance makes it even worse: traditional clerics move down 2 notches (8 HD are unturnable) while destroyers lose 20% of their damage or 50% of their save damage. Not even close.