D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

I like everything I've seen in the 4e books--almost. We're now at a point where we have enough info to know that dump-statting is going to be very pronounced in 4e, certainly more so than in 3e (which is not to say it was non-existent). I'm wondering if anybody else has pondered this.

I know some of the responses I should expect, so I should qualify that I'm not contending that dump-statting is inherently a bad thing. Not every character ought to be great at everything. But there's a distinction between optional dump-statting, where you choose to forego the benefits of having a high ability score, and obligatory dump-statting, where you simply receive no benefits from having a high ability score--not merely suboptimal benefits, but pretty much zilch, so elevating the score beyond the absolute minimum has no practical value.

In particular, we now know that Intelligence no longer provides any general benefit to skills as it did in 3e or SWS. It factors into the same defenses that Dex does, so it seems a nimble character doesn't get any value from being smart. Wizards are the obvious exception, and warlocks and warlords would do well to mind their Int. But I'm wondering now if Int 8 rogues and rangers are going to be as ubiquitous as Str 8 wizards and Cha 8 fighters. The "smart and fast" character is a pretty classic concept, and I know many folks loved that 3e gave skill-oriented a benefit for making their characters smart. Is anyone disappointed now?

I plan on making all of the wisdom skills int skills except perception and insight. I don't thing that will make wisdom a dump stat because those are two extremely useful skills.

Minsc and Boo have no need for smarty pants. Boo doesn't even wear pants!

That is disappointing. I like that in 3E every character could benefit from more Intelligence via more skill points.

This to me is one of my biggest hates of 4e, and in general I like it.

There are no far more characters that int in 4e than there were in 3e. Wizards, warlocks and warlords (yep all the W's) get a good amount of love from int. That's good to see.

But for classes that dont' use it, there's 0 reason to use it. Dex is just a better stat. Now sure if a fighter really want to be a ritualist he would want a good int, because arcana knowledge is big for rituals. But fighters, rogues, paladins, and rangers get 0 benefit from int.

The obligatory dump-statting has always been one of my greatest concerns about 4e.

Stalker0 said:

But for classes that dont' use it, there's 0 reason to use it. Dex is just a better stat. Now sure if a fighter really want to be a ritualist he would want a good int, because arcana knowledge is big for rituals. But fighters, rogues, paladins, and rangers get 0 benefit from int.

Click to expand...

You can base both your reflex and AC bonus on Int, and it is good for all o the knowledge skills, and it is good for wizards and warlords and anyone who plans on using ritual magic or multi-classing into wizard, so its pretty useful still. Its more useful than Dex if you are a wizard or warlord, but less useful if you are a fighter, ranger, or rogue. Its a little more useful than Dex if you are a cleric or warlock (because you may want the Arcana bonus when you use rituals, or when trying to understand some magical phenomena).

Really, the stats in 4e are way more balanced than they were in 3e, where Int was very important for skill points.

It could be argued that in 4e Con is the best stat, but then there are few powers based on Con (only infernal warlock powers and a few fighter exploits), and I think only 1 skill (endurance, a not too useful skill that I was surprised even made it into 4e).

Then, there is the role playing aspect of the stats. Since you can get away with having a high Int instead of a high Dex, people might actually choose a to take a hit on Dex for Int, as it can be more fun to play a character with a good Int, if you feel like acting smart rather than dumb.

How about you give each character a +1 bonus that they can apply to any skill for each point of Int bonus they have? Say that they can't stack and you have a sort of all-round benefit but not essential effect.

werekraken said:

You can base both your reflex and AC bonus on Int, and it is good for all o the knowledge skills, and it is good for wizards and warlords and anyone who plans on using ritual magic or multi-classing into wizard, so its pretty useful still. Its more useful than Dex if you are a wizard or warlord, but less useful if you are a fighter, ranger, or rogue. Its a little more useful than Dex if you are a cleric or warlock (because you may want the Arcana bonus when you use rituals, or when trying to understand some magical phenomena).

Click to expand...

Well, all of that's not really saying anything that wasn't summed up previously. Intelligence has reverted back to being the skill for arcane-oriented characters, rather than being a generally useful for all smart characters.

I'd go a step farther than saying Int is "less useful" for fighters, rangers, and rogues. It's of no use whatsoever. It's not just suboptimal mind you, it's actually virtually worthless. That's bad, IMO.

Really, the stats in 4e are way more balanced than they were in 3e, where Int was very important for skill points.

Click to expand...

I don't see that being the case. Dex offers some general benefits that are desirable for everyone, whereas all of Int's unique benefits are very much class-oriented (basically, the three skills that are based on Int).

Then, there is the role playing aspect of the stats. Since you can get away with having a high Int instead of a high Dex, people might actually choose a to take a hit on Dex for Int, as it can be more fun to play a character with a good Int, if you feel like acting smart rather than dumb.

Click to expand...

You can now get by with making a clumsy character and not feeling its effects on your defenses. Conversely, making a character that is both smart and fast is rather redundant. Certainly the smart and fast martial character is a concept I think 4e should have accounted for, as they did in the previous edition and Star Wars Saga.

Stalker0 said:

But for classes that dont' use it, there's 0 reason to use it. Dex is just a better stat.

Click to expand...

Dex really isn't a better stat than Int if you have no particular need for either. Rogues & Rangers obviously prefer Dex. Melee characters using blades will prefer Dex. But if you're a melee character using anything else (axes, maces, polearms, picks, flails, etc.), either stat is equally good to you.