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$125,000 in fines for D&D pirates? Help me do the math...

Uzzy

First Post
So, now that WoTC have ended the piracy of their products with these settlements, we are going to see the PDF's restored, so I can download the ones I paid for again, as well as buy new ones?

Or did this whole exercise just disadvantage customers and WoTC for no gain on either side?
 

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JohnRTroy

Adventurer
You can read the settlement in the documents I attached.

From what I've seen, both of the defendants who settled are over 18. I believe Arthur Le confessed to that. I didn't see an age for Mr. Nolan, but I don't think you can represent yourself pro se if you are a minor, though an attorney can correct me.

This was a suit under 17 USC 504, which is a civil case, not the criminal section.

And--this is very important--look at the large document at the end of the file. This is for the "default judgement" against Mike Becker. They line-list all the attorney fees, and--they actually have a print-out thread from RPTools, where Mike actually makes statements incriminating himself. This is why I cautioned the defendant from Poland to not discuss things publically. The guy was posting as Humble Apostle, and the lawyers were savvy enough to identify him as that user. (I'll bet they have a printout of evidence from EnWorld regarding the Polish user). The guy may have tried to hide by "not responding", but I have a feeling the legal team will be allowed to get collection agencies after the guy.

ETA: I just attached the PDF in question to this message.
 

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Starbuck_II

First Post
So, now that WoTC have ended the piracy of their products with these settlements, we are going to see the PDF's restored, so I can download the ones I paid for again, as well as buy new ones?

Or did this whole exercise just disadvantage customers and WoTC for no gain on either side?

No, the gain is these feeders are no longer feeding illegal pdfs to torrents.
That is a Karmic benefit. As soon as WotC catches the rest of the feeders no new PDFs will be on torrents.
Problem solved. Might take years though. After all, without the feeders the beast starves and dies (no one can dl something that isn't available from feeders).
Whether there is a financial benefit is another matter.
 

georgegad

First Post
..... My desire for the limited commodity of Sergio Aragonnes original art is simply not that high......

Even if it were, get yourself a high quality printer and print a few off, hang them around the house. Copyright is to prevent you selling his work, not to stop personal use. As long as you never try to sell the work as a real Sergio it should be OK. I know its not as kool as having a real one, but it doesnt make you a criminal.

.....The fact that it is starting to inconviance him, and made him pay for a book is a small victory....

Yeah, it took me three tries each a week apart to get a dmg2 pdf. Which was kinda inconvient, i had players asking if i was including material and i couldnt answer.
There was no way i was going to buy one without reading it, i regret buying the last dmg but was keen to support the new product. In hindsight i should have bought magic cards that day instead.
DMG1 is nice for new players but IMHO only had about 6 pages of information for old DMs. I have since printed off these 6 pages and leave the hardcopy DMG1 at home to lighten the load.
If the dmg2 is the same i shall be keeping my money for the next monster manual, or perhaps vault2, vault1 rocked.
....As soon as WotC catches the rest of the feeders no new PDFs will be on torrents.
Problem solved. Might take years though. After all, without the feeders the beast starves and dies (no one can dl something that isn't available from feeders)..

What feeders? I think you misunderstand the concept. If noone else uploads a copy to the internet i am going to have to borrow a hardcopy from the lads at the gameshop and scan it myself to hand around to my players. And once we do that sooner or later one of us will upload it privatly to a few friends, such is the way of things
 
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Voadam

Legend
Its not. Again, the issue is that some people thought that these specific individuals were penalized with greater damages than those given to normal infringers because someone decided to single them out in order to send a message to other potential infringers. That is incorrect.

That's all I'm saying. Obviously damages greater than recompense are intended to deter, and deterrence can be rhetorically described as "sending a message," although its worth noting that this is a rhetorical move that obtains its influence by borrowing from issues not invoked in this case.

I went back to the beginning trying to find people saying that.

People thought the penalties were high. People thought the penalties were high to send a message of deterrence.

I can't find anyone saying these people were punished more severely than other infringers prosecuted under these civil laws.

The statement of yours I was responding to was the first paragraph of post #36.


Its not really relevant here. This was a settlement. No one sat down and decided that this settlement award would serve as "a warning to others," because no legal authority sat down and decided the settlement award at all. The parties did it on their own.

Mind you, they did so against a backdrop of the law regarding IP infringement, which happens to include statutory and punitive damages. These damages have a lot of purposes, including deterrence, but they're not personalized to the individual defendant. So somewhere the legislature sat down and decided that the penalties for infringement ought to be a particular way, and they did so with the intent of making punishments for infringement sufficient to deter infringement. Which is a fancy way of saying that they wanted the punishment for infringement to serve as a warning to other possible infringers.

But that doesn't mean that these specific people were singled out for greater punishment in order to terrorize others into compliance with the law. They were sued under the same laws, with the same possible punishments, as you or I could be if we did what they did.

Looking back over the comments before this post I couldn't find anybody saying these were singled out beyond other prosecuted infringers, just that the legal damages award and settlement figures are punishing and meant to send a warning, "to terrorize others into compliance with the law".

The closest was Haakon1 who thought sending a message using punishment as a warning to others was unconstitutional.

You sound like an attorney, so I've got to call this out. Punitive, sure. But "a warning to others". Really? Is that an official legal concept in the US? Sounds unconstitutional to me, as I just said a minute ago in another post.


Nod, sounds like do the crime, do the time to me. Not "an example", but punishment for what they actually did.

Whether it's "harsh" or "punitive" punishment, I dunno. But it is, apparently, what the law provides for, and if I were WOTC, I think I'd go with the Macy's policy: we prosecute to the full extent of the law.

I guess WOTC could have settled for less, but from their POV, it probably was firing a shot across the pirate's bows.

I'm just saying, from a legal perspective, it was just deserts, not "making an example". I think . . . not a lawyer, just an old poli sci /history major who was never all that interested in US politics.

Isn't the cruel and unusual punishment? I thought that the US Bill of Rights decided that British and French colonial "justice" ideas like collective punishment, torture to get confessions, and grabbing someone from a crowd to string him up "as an example to the others" weren't things we were going to do, once we ran the place?

So I think your logic is wrong. I don't disagree with this particular court decision. And as I understand it, it's a civil action (Hasbro v. Joe Pirate), not a criminal action (State of Washington v. Joe Pirate), so I really doubt "un exemple por les autres" was the the point, legally speaking.

Everybody else seemed to just be saying this was to punish and send a message.

I'm breaking my self-imposed vow to avoid piracy threads (due to my blood pressure) to address this one:

Before you decry the settlement, check the law about the penalties that are possible.

U.S. Copyright Office - Copyright Law: Chapter 5

The copyright holder has a choice of remedies including 1) actual damages & recovery of lost profits, 2) statutory damages ($750-30,000 per infringement- yes, this is meant to be punitive and a warning to others), 3) forfeiture and destruction, 4) a flat $150,000, 5) costs & attorney fees (so that even low-income IP owners can afford to sue), 6) injunctions. If the infringement was deemed to be a "Criminal Infringement"- you can get jail time up to 5 years AND a fine of up to $250k.

Bold added above

Definitely about sending a message. Seems like it has been heard loud and clear . . . but was it heard by the intended subjects?

I am guessing the sum is meant to set a warning (what's that word? punitive?) Thus, it is deliberately set very high, so as to send a message and discourage other people from pirating. It is the same rationale why people caught evading taxes have to pay back a multiple of what they owe.

Sorta like punishing one to warn a hundred.

I doubt it is simply to replace lost sales (unless they factor in the other people the company will not be able to sue and make the accused foot their part as well). Though if you think about it, the costs involved in prosecuting these people does run up fast. I guess lawyers are the real winners here...;)

You keep saying that even though the penalties are more than losses and are by definition punishment and deterrence these settlements are not sending a message because these individuals are not prosecuted more than others under the same laws.

I keep saying there is a message, Congress authorized one in every prosecuted infringer case and WotC took them up on it with prosecuting $225,000 in settlement awards by targeting these defendants under these laws.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Because it's not theft, and people keep using that comparison to justify why "downloading music is bad, m'kay". An intangible thing like a piece of software or a virtual file that doesn't really exist cannot be "stolen" in the same sense as a tangible thing like a car, or computer, or bicycle, and the value lost to the company is nonexistent because they can just make another copy of it at no cost to themselves.

Statements like this are one reason why I took that self imposed vow of non-participation- it was always brought up, regardless of evidence, usually by the same posters. Which is why, after this response, I'll go back to that vow.

Copyright infringement is a form of theft by definition. As I've posted numerous times on this website in countless other piracy threads, the definition of theft in Black's Law Dictionary includes this language:

Black's Law Dictionary
Theft...The taking of property without the owner's consent...(Theft is) any of the following acts done with the intent to deprive the owner permanently of the possession, use or benefit of his property: (a) Obtaining or exerting unauthorized control over property...

One of the primary benefits of IP- like any form of property- is the ability to control who can obtain it and at what price. By infringing on a copyright, you're "exerting unauthorized control" over the IP holder's property since you're not meeting the IP holder's conditions for transfer of the right to use it (IOW, you didn't pay him). You are "taking property without the owner's consent."

(In case you're wondering, there is settled case law stating that "exerting unauthorized control" doesn't even require movement of the property at all. And that involved physical goods: the locking of a door behind which sat- untouched- the property that was to be removed later that day.)

And since a definition already exists, most laws dealing with some form of theft don't bother stating "X is theft." They accept it as a basic tenet of the law that needs not be reiterated, and go on from there.

The statement I quoted above was in response to a question to the effect of "if its a theft, why isn't it enforced by criminal law?"

The answer to that, is that sometimes it is. If someone commits a homicide, he is open to both criminal (murder, involuntary homicide, etc.)- possibly at the Federal or State level- and civil prosecution (wrongful death).

Similarly, there are both criminal and civil penalties in IP law, but the law prefers that the civil lawsuits proceed first because, among other reasons, whatever moneys that are awarded go directly to the aggrieved party. IOW, the IP holder. In a criminal case, those fines go to the Feds because you're being brought into court by the Feds. I mean, its all well and good to send an infringer to jail and fine him, but it doesn't "make the IP holder whole." He's still out his due profits, and he can't send his creditors to sue the jailed IP thief for the $$$.

Ultimately, though, there will be no legal solution to the problem- the only real solution will come via a change in the ethical viewpoints of would-be infringers.

And just so there is no misunderstanding: I have no issue with IP being released in digital formats. Its not for me, but its ideal for so many segments of the market- both sellers and consumers. But the only time its legal for someone to download someone's song or book for free is when that someone grants permission. Downloading of music isn't bad, its downloading music without paying the asking price (whatever that may be).

There are all kinds of artists who are trading free or cheap downloads for exposure- its being used as a form of advertising. And that's fine because they're expressly permitting their work to be used thus.

But to simply take someone's work without permission? Not legal, and not ethical.
 
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georgegad

First Post
.... As I've posted numerous times on this website in countless other piracy threads, the definition of theft in Black's Law Dictionary includes this language.....

While you may have quoted that many times having just read it i dont see why you think it supports your apparent view.

Where it states "any of the following acts done with the intent to deprive the owner permanently of the possession, use or benefit of his property:" it is more or less conradicting your entire point and making the case for your opponent.

Nobody has ever intended to deprive anyone permanently of any posession.

Similarly you continue on and seem to suggest that these people may have otherwise been arrested and we both know that is not true.
 

Hussar

Legend
While you may have quoted that many times having just read it i dont see why you think it supports your apparent view.

Where it states "any of the following acts done with the intent to deprive the owner permanently of the possession, use or benefit of his property:" it is more or less conradicting your entire point and making the case for your opponent.

Nobody has ever intended to deprive anyone permanently of any posession.

Similarly you continue on and seem to suggest that these people may have otherwise been arrested and we both know that is not true.

Don't forget the or that statement. It's permanently deprive the owner of the possession, use OR benefit of his property.

By making an IP freely available without permission, you are depriving someone of the benefit of his property. While he may still have possession of it, it's now worth less than it was before, thus you are directly depriving him of the value (or benefit) of his property.

DannyA, I really wish you would stop posting. I can't keep giving you posrep. The damn system just won't let me. :D

BTW, if you are making 10 bucks an hour, isn't that poverty line in the US? The average income is now 25 bucks an hour (50 k per year). But, yeah, the fine is stiff.

Bloody good. I have zero sympathy for these guys. It's not like it's a big secret not to scan a book and put it on a torrent. Gee shock. Oh noes, surprise it's bad and you get your ass sued off. Duh.

I've made it a standard practice in my games that someone in the group MUST own a book before it gets used. Used to be I had to own the book before it could be used at the table because I absolutely will not allow people to use downloaded content. I trust my players now (I play online, so I don't get to see anyone face to face) so, I've relaxed the standards a bit.

But, come on. We post on En World. Daily we talk to the people who are getting ripped off. Whether it's someone from WOTC, or Erik Mona, or jim pinto, we talk to these guys. They aren't some faceless executive. Many of us have met these guys in person.

But we're still going to stand here and try to defend piracy? Damn, that's cold.
 

BTW, if you are making 10 bucks an hour, isn't that poverty line in the US? The average income is now 25 bucks an hour (50 k per year).
well here in CT min wage is $8 and change... and I have never in my 30 year life made $25 an hour. My tuesday night game has a walmart employee (Older then me) who make 10 and change, a Sears manager (Just promoted, and older then me) who make $13, a Sears salesman wh is at exact min wage 28hrs a week, a guy doing shipping for a company at $14, and a guy in customer service call center work for 10 on the dot. I was for years the most sucsessful of us. Now the other Call center guy goes to school for computers so he will get better...

I know 'average' is miss leading, but my single mom never made 25$ an hour, so I have to belive there are alot of people living on less then that.
As for poverity line, they guy makeing min wage 28hrs a week does not qualafy for food stamps in CT, or anyother wellfair like things...

But, come on. We post on En World. Daily we talk to the people who are getting ripped off. Whether it's someone from WOTC, or Erik Mona, or jim pinto, we talk to these guys. They aren't some faceless executive. Many of us have met these guys in person.

But we're still going to stand here and try to defend piracy? Damn, that's cold.

You know people have gamed with these people, and been friends...I wonder how all the pirate defenders would feel if the shoe was on the other foot...
 


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