1421: The Year China Discovered...

[Celebrim]

The evidence comes from the archaeological record on the northwest coast like the finding of metal tools of Chinese manufacture at a site on the Olympic peninsula near Seattle (a whole village was buried under a mudslide and well preserved).

Mind explaining to me why I haven't heard of a discovery of archaeological importance on par with the ruins of Pompeii and the dead sea scrolls?

Surely a well preserved pre-Columbian Chinese village on the North American coast constitutes one of the greatest archaeological finds of all time. But, try as I might, I can't find a website or news story devoted to discovery on the internet. Care to point me to some websites? In what scientific journal was this discovery reported? Why doesn't the Royal BC or Burke Museum have an exhibit on this fascinating discovery? On what planet was I living when this happened?

 

[gizmo33]

I wasn't really making any statement about what the book claims, merely that the fact that the author is British doesn't necessarily mean he's a champion of Western culture.

Ok I see what you're saying. But to the degree that one of the attributes of Western Culture is self-criticism and dissent (or something like it, perhaps? maybe that's just hippies), then your clarification gets the "Gizmo Question Mark". But then I'm not sure of the answer to that and it's probably a question best left to 20th level philosophers.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Fusangite, I remember one of my linguistics professors mentioning some similarities with a little-known language from a West Coast native american tribe and Chinese. Any information on that?

The idea itself though sounds pretty cool. I like the notion of a vast fleet of Chinese junks heading to America in the 1400s. Where they meet the Native American shaman with their command of the Wendigo and other native creatures. Where the Aztec Empire (I think it was getting started at that point) commands real magical power with blood sacrifice. It could be a really neat campaign.

(Oh, and Menzies? If he thinks the Newport Tower is made by the Chinese, he's on a par with Erich von Daanekin - sp?. Thanks for the link with the debunking. I had read about the archeological effort before, but not the mill in England.)

 

[fusangite]

Mind explaining to me why I haven't heard of a discovery of archaeological importance on par with the ruins of Pompeii and the dead sea scrolls?

I had no idea arrowheads, knivres and trowels in a small community on the Olympic peninsula would fall into such a category.

Surely a well preserved pre-Columbian Chinese village on the North American coast constitutes one of the greatest archaeological finds of all time.

Please try to read what I am saying more carefully. It was a native village and not a Chinese village. The native village, despite being pre-Columbian had a small number of metal tools forged using processes that had not yet been discovered in Mesoamerica at the time of contact. I recall them being iron but I'm several thousand miles away from my notes right now. I have no idea why you have not heard of it if you really do know this field, given that I was taught about the village in a university history course by a highly respected academic in the field. I am on holiday now but would be happy to forward the journal citations to you when I return home.

Although a European origin for the tools has not been ruled out, it has been assumed by scholars given the dating and location of the village that the tools are of Chinese origin. Again, there may be other evidence besides date and location that may point to this but I'm not aware of it.

As for the Sung dynasty Chinese coin as a Gitksan heirloom, the book in which this is discussed is by Terry Glavin. I'm not sure which of his books it appears in but my best guess, again away from my notes, is that the book was Death Feast At Temlehamud.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

In what scientific journal was this discovery reported?

I've read "1421" my understanding of the evidence situation is the stuff exists - one side (unofficial and unorthodox) says it is pre-Columban and the other (official and orthodox) assrts the evidence is post-Columbian and post-colonization.

That said, the book does provide some interesting game possibilities.

 

[fusangite]

Fusangite, I remember one of my linguistics professors mentioning some similarities with a little-known language from a West Coast native american tribe and Chinese. Any information on that?

I believe it's Zuni; which is odd as the Zuni are inland. However, I've never looked in to this closely. The Zuni theory, at least from an historical standpoint, is very tough to sustain and was initially based on some bad scholarship so I may be referring to the wrong group. However, what I recall was that the only way the theory retained any credibility was on a linguistic basis. There may be more recent research to which you are referring that has nothing to do with the ideas people had about the Zuni 15 years ago when last I read about it.

The idea itself though sounds pretty cool. I like the notion of a vast fleet of Chinese junks heading to America in the 1400s. Where they meet the Native American shaman with their command of the Wendigo and other native creatures. Where the Aztec Empire (I think it was getting started at that point) commands real magical power with blood sacrifice. It could be a really neat campaign.

I am currently running a campaign a little like; it's a group of 13th century Europeans in the Americas. Sadly I can't say more about how cool the game is as one of my players actually reads ENWorld regularl... including the off-topic forum.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I dunno, Fusangite, I read what you wrote a couple times.

It still seems like you're intimating that they found a preserved Chinese village. Perhaps if you'd written:

The evidence comes from the archaeological record on the northwest coast. Quite a few metal tools of Chinese manufacture were found at a site on the Olympic peninsula near Seattle (the Indian village in which they were found was buried under a mudslide and well preserved).

 

[gizmo33]

Surely a well preserved pre-Columbian Chinese village on the North American coast constitutes one of the greatest archaeological finds of all time.

Does anyone remember where they were when they found pre-Columbian Norse settlements in North America? I don't. I thought it was in the 70s, but I'm not sure.

As I recall, the Norse settlement evidence was:
1. scanty, near legendary account
2. some tools and a few long houses

Does that sound comparable to what we're talking about here? Now if they found a laser gun or something, that would be cool. But given the scope of what is possible with regards to Chinese contact with the "New World", I imagine that it's possible that evidence of relatively trivial contact would not make the news.

 

[Cyronax]

I wanted to jump in here and comment on this interesting topic. I've studied the subject of pre-Columbian American exploration, Atlantis, and most types of pseudoscience for most of adult life.

Two things, first somewhat unrelated to the topic at hand:

1) For some truly mind blowing stories relating to pre-Columbian exploration of the New World try searching Google with any combinatinon of the following: Knights Templar, Money Pit, Oak Island, St. Clair/Sinclair. It harkens to themes and ideas presented in the Da Vinci Code and countless Masonic/Grail legends done over the last 150 years. (I happen to live within sight of George Washington's Masonic Temple in NoVa ) (is this common knowledge? If it is sorry.....)

2) I don't think it was mentioned earlier, but Admiral Zheng He's voyages and those ostensibly funded by Zhu Di (as in official state sponsored explorations only here) have been well documented from my study of the subject. I cannot speak to privately funded ventures of unknown 'adventurers' (of which there were a great deal during that period of imperial history), but the official state voyages of the Admiral and those associated with China's brief stint as a maritime empire dealt with Polynesia, Africa (they got far there), and Arabia.

I have read articles that indicate the possibility of a Chinese landing in California and Baja based on something like left-behind shipping pots or something of the nature (its been awhile since I researched this). But IMO the Zheng He/Zhu Di/official state sponsor link is not credible. I unfortunately can't point to many sources for these comments (yet), but I researched this and other subjects like the Vikings in the New World, Atlantis, and others for a good chunk of my college career. Vikings, British Islanders (Sinclairs and maybe Irish monks) reaching America ..... credible. Servants of Egyptian pharoahs and Zheng He not as much.

Respectfully,
C.I.D.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I actually studied the Zheng He era while I lived and studied in Beijing a few years back. I heard some cool stuff about his travels, but America wasn't one of them. ....... I switched majors a lot in college

 

[Klaus]

Fusangite: "As was the case with Europeans and the Antilles and Brazil, North America's West Coast got its name from the Chinese centuries before they actually discovered it."

Eh?