1E at Heart 3rd Edition Mind Set

Summer-Knight925

First Post
Look into this, it is a different game, but it IS totally free.

Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game

still keeps all the good parts of 3.5 (IMO those are ascending AC and most of how combat works) but gives the "GM" more options, takes out skills (there are house rules that allow you to add skills, if you really wanted) and all that fun stuff.

Again, it is totally free, as are the adventures they have online (all of the stuff if free pdf, but it's still easy to convert to whatever you want)

but the best thing I could say to do (once more IMO) is to play adventures with a 1e feel (dungeon crawls anyone? good ol' fashion dungeon crawls?) and use monster templates and monster creation rules to keep things interesting, remember hte first time that chest turned into a mimic? yeah...nightmares for weeks.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
I think a lot of the 1st edition feel can be successfully conveyed by adopting 1st edition conventions about how monsters are distributed, how treasure is distributed, and how dungeons are to be designed. Some tweaking is required but I've had good success adopting things like the 1st 'no appearing' form the 1st edition MM, using the 1st edition treasure tables, generating magic items according to the 1st edition table, and even in one case generating a dungeon using mostly the random dungeon generation table in the back of the 1e DMG. Granted, you may have to tweak things abit to achieve 3rd edition balance, and granted there are some aspects of 1e which you might not want to port wholesale (like the need to pump the PC's with mounds treasure to keep them advancing in level) but on the whole I don't feel that 3e had to signficantly change my game world. First level became the new 0th level, and second level became what 1st level had been. Other than that, things didn't change much.

Some specific things though:

1) The first edition experience was very varied, and you really can't say that 1e feel was any one thing. For me, it was slower rate of advancement and scarcer magic items than what I saw as the default in 3e. For others, especially those relying heavily on published modules rather than the MM treasure tables, the rapid advancement and mounds of magic items probably wasn't jarring and might have even been familiar. Depending on how closely you adhered to the rules and how your DM treated illusions, you might the find the fact that 3e is dominated by spellcasters to be familiar, or you might find the lack of balance to be jarring.

2) Rebalancing spellcasters requires some specific and probably contriversial steps to be taken. For me, the following seems to work fairly well as a start: spells no longer add their spell level to the DC to pass a save, use the weakest of either the 3.0 or 3.5 version of the spell and tweak any remaining spell that wins the action economy, and elimenate 'casting defensively'. I've found 1e to be a good resource for looking at how spells used to be balanced. Often there were restrictions in 1e that were dropped, resulting in the spell being broken. You don't have to go fully with the 1e route (Frex, I use 3.5 haste, rather than 1e haste and its balancing of you age two years every time you cast it.), but it is helpful to think about. You might still need some small tweaks after that, but provided you have a more 1e like encounter structure instead of one big CR+4 battle per day (allowing spellcasters to go nova) things work relatively well at least through the level of play you'd focus on in 1e. (I've never attempted to play 3e at near 20th level, and have no intention to.) The resulting balance is at least as good as 1e, which had serious balance issues of its own just in different places (especially when you add Unearthed Arcana to the mix).

3) Did things like keeping watch, marching order, and so forth ever really go away? If they did, it had nothing to do with the system and everything to do with how you ran the game. So run the game like you are running classic D&D.
 

Greg K

Legend
I try to capture a blend of 1e/2e feel. However, as mentioned, what those "feel" are varies by person and group.

For myself, some of the things that I do are
1. Use the Slow Advancement variant in the DMg

2. Use the training rules variants in the DMG
a. you can't learn a new class without a trainer.
b. wizards can only learn spells they find a) in spell books or scrolls, b) can exchange with another wizard, c) can purchase from a willing wizard. This puts the spells in the campaign back into the DM's hands

3. Other Wizard restrictions
a. Use the 1e memorization rules for regaining spells

4. Equipment lists
a. Several items from the 3e PHB do not exist (sunrods, tanglefoot bags, spiked chains, etc.)
b. Many of the missing 1e armor and weapons exist either in supplements or the Polearm article in Dragon by Ari. I incorporate them into my campaign

5. Barbarians: The official Barbarians Class in 1e was not a rager and the homeland affected skills and weapons
a. Use the Unearthed Arcana Barbarian Hunter variant
b. Swap Favored Enemy for Favored Terrain (Unearthed Arcana Variant)
c. Use Cultural Weapon Groups (see Unearthed Arcana Weapon Group variant)
d. Allow the Barbarian to swap out the Archery Feats for another combat style Tree that is more relevant to the culture

6. Clerics: I am fond of the 2e Speicalty Priests. However, I think the mechanics of 3e allow them to be more balanced.
a. Clerics are limited to the spell in their deity' domains and alignment (I rewrote many of the domains) and a handful of spells shared by all clerics.
b. Clerics are spontaneous casters (UA variant)
c. Cloistered Cleric variant is used for the clerics of some deities

7. Skills
a. Some things are impossible regardless of rolls (searching in the wrong area)

b. A successful roll doesnt mean automatic success. Depending upon circumstances it may simply provide a clue (disturbed dust reveals the secret door, but not how to open it, scratches may be a clue to a false panel, etc.)

c. Some things are automatic (a player stating that they remove the cap of bedpost finds the scroll or map you placed in there without needing to roll)

d. Don't let the players getaway with just a roll for Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intmidation. Have them state what the character is doing or saying. You might give a bonus or penalty, but if the character fails the die roll, what they meant to say did not come across as intended, convincing, or they broke some social grace, etc. On the other hand, the small bonus allowing the low or unskilled character might represent the key point in their missteps being recognized despite the negative factors.

8. Monsters
a. Be sure to use both Tailored (party level is a consideration) and Status Quo Encounters (party level is not a factor) (DMG)

8. Use wandrering monsters where it makes sense
 

1. Removing all Social skills such as Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and making it somthing that would need to be role played and then let the DM determine how the npc acts apropriatly.
As noted by others the problem isn't in allowing skill rolls into roleplaying situations, it's allowing skill rolls to REPLACE roleplaying situations. As long as PC's have a requirement of supporting social skill rolls with some roleplaying substance there's far less of an issue.

2. Removing Disable Trap as a skill from the game. I feel the group should figure out how the trap works and disable it apropriatly e.g 10ft poles vs Pit Falls. I am unsure if i would need to give the rogue class some kind of benefit to account for this but I dont think i do.
Again, it isn't as if 1E thieves didn't have Remove Traps skill rolls. The issue is allowing the skill roll to entirely REPLACE any description or understanding of how the trap would work. Traps could be FOUND iin 1E without needing to make a skill roll. They could also be disabled without needing to make a skill roll by simply understanding how it worked or bypassed entirely by clever play.
3. You are only allowed to attempt a skill a maxium of 3 times e.g picking a lock, searching e.t.c before it becomes imposible for you to do it. I may raise the dc by 2 each attempt. It anoys me that skill chalenges are irrelvant as they can just keep rolling till infinity.
I'd be wary of putting a hard cap on anything. The point is that it should be up to the DM to declare that there is a practical limit to the amount of re-attempts - just as there may NOT be a practical limit. Three Strikes and you're out doesn't make sense in all circumstances and sometimes even three may be too many. You have to rule each situation as it arises. That is the 1E way.
4. Replacing most save vs poison or die effects with more apropriate diseases / poisons e.g heavy (and im talking d6+1) stat minus that can accumulate to death. E.g get poisioned by 3 different plants and you could end up losing 21 con and dieing! (more of a 1E to 3E one here!)
Poison does not have to be a devastating binary result: life/death. This is really more of an issue of monster design from 1E. The dangers to humans from poisons in real-life creatures varies a lot and Gary simply didn't care to be using poison in subtler ways. I get the idea that he was trying to get players to go to great roleplaying lengths to avoid or make the poison irrelevant entirely, so he didn't need or want a more realistic approach.

My suggestion would be to re-examine each monster that has poison, determine what its poison would normally be used against (predator incapacitating its prey, or prey protecting itself from predator, or just an unexpected byproduct of anatomical processes?). A predator has poison to keep its prey from escaping or fighting back and often is not lethal, but is completely incapacitating. AFTER the poison has taken effect is when the prey is actually killed. Defensive poisons don't have to kill either - they are more likely to cause pain or somehow debilitate the predator to allow the prey to escape or encourage the predator to cease attacking and look for some other food. And the effect of poisons on one species doesn't always have the same effect on others. Lots of D&D monsters are giant versions of real-world critters so their poison often ought to be worse but there should still be species of giant spiders for example whose poison is intended for use against... blink dogs or giant flies and so the effect on PC races might not be lethal.

Poison effects from missed saves can still be lethal even if they aren't outright death. Poisons that simply cause additional hit point loss kill easily. Poisons can cause sleep, paralysis, hallucination, blindness, wounds that won't clot, fevers, weakness, shaking, sweating, dizziness, unconsciousness or coma rather than outright death. Don't replace save-or-die with ONLY something just as uninspired and tedious as save-or-stat-loss. Use that too, but exercise some creativity. Don't get trapped by the mindset that things have to fit into nice rules-defined niches. Heck, just look at the list of 3E's Condition Summary and you can see all kinds of potential poison effects that will make for far more interesting monsters.

Since this is also a fantasy environment a poison can do something really exotic like cause spellcasters to spontaneously manifest spell effects.

Poisons can also vary in the time it takes for the poison to actually begin to take effect regardless of the saving throw. Not all poisons take instant effect. They may take rounds or even hours to begin to take effect much less run their course.

5. Keeping Marching orders and making sure they map dungeons or ensuring they keep watch whilst sleeping. Really just trying to put the role play elemenats that came easy with 1E back into a much easier to use 3E class and balance concept
It's not that they were easier in 1E but that 3E materials simply made no mention of things like maintaining an order of march or setting a watch for protection during the night. So, DM's who hadn't already been indoctrinated into D&D often didn't know any better. Without being told otherwise they learned that encounters begin when you roll initiative, when any 1E player would have told you that encounters happen any time, anywhere, in any form; that you might never have to roll a die in an encounter; that encounters can be overcome by roleplaying alone; that encounters could (and sometimes SHOULD) be avoided entirely by taking logical, sensible precautions and maintaining a characters "awareness" just by roleplaying.

It all comes down to the fact that it's really not what rules you play - but how you play them. I think I read that in a sig somewhere...
 

terrya

First Post
Thanks for all the replys in this thread guys. Lots of helpfull ideas. A Large argument was had at this weeks game about somthing else from 1E. In 3E animal companions are controlled by the player were as in 1E the DM had full control of your partner, We could not come to an agreement on which to go with. What do you guys do here? This really is a more general issue with my group, we all do prefer trying to play with a more 1E feel and are starting to achieve it but we have one player who takes it to extremes and does not play unless he gets his own way, like with the above, what do you do? At the moment we just dont play with him but considering hes my father calling him a dick can only work for so long!
 

Celebrim

Legend
Thanks for all the replys in this thread guys. Lots of helpfull ideas. A Large argument was had at this weeks game about somthing else from 1E. In 3E animal companions are controlled by the player...

Wait, they were? That was a rule somewhere? I don't recall anywhere in the rules where it explicitly stated who had full agency over familiars, animal companions, summoned creatures, and the like. This is something I believe is left up to the individual groups in 3e to work out how they prefered.

For my part, I told the players in both editions the same thing. A wizard with a familiar was told, "Ok, your familiar is an NPC. Ultimately, I have final say over the behavior of the NPC. I will occasionally choose to step in an 'animate' the character in order to add color or comedy to the situation. On the other hand, the familiar is magically bound and submissive to you. It treats you as its master. It won't disobey a direct order and has goals which are largely by necessity the same as your PC's. If you tell it not to do something, it won't (though it may bend or twist the letter of your instructions if you are treating it poorly and it may find ways to annoy you if you annoy it.) For simplicities sake, you may generally direct the activities of your familiar (assuming you are conscious) especially in combat, and if you choose from time to time to 'animate' the character as a counterpart to your own roleplay I pretty much won't mind. "
 


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